From mmaginnis at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 19:27:04 2010
From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 17:27:04 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question
Message-ID: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>

Several of the disks in my collection don't completely boot.  Basically, 
it gets to the SOS version screen, and the disk drive stops spinning. 
The message doesn't go away and it never gets any further.  This is an 
earlier /// with 128K, serial number around 18000.

Is this a case of software developed for later ///'s with more 
capability, or an indication of a problem with this particular unit?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

- Mike

From louiss at gate.net  Sat Apr 17 19:46:53 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:46:53 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question
In-Reply-To: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
References: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BCA486D.5080103@gate.net>

Do any disks boot?  If yes, the disks are bad (bit rot).  If none boot, 
you probably have some sort of hardware problem.  I'd check the memory 
first.  If you can't boot the computer, the best way to test will be to 
substitute chips.

Louis

Mike Maginnis wrote:
> Several of the disks in my collection don't completely boot.  Basically, 
> it gets to the SOS version screen, and the disk drive stops spinning. 
> The message doesn't go away and it never gets any further.  This is an 
> earlier /// with 128K, serial number around 18000.
>
> Is this a case of software developed for later ///'s with more 
> capability, or an indication of a problem with this particular unit?
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> - Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>   

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Sat Apr 17 20:28:05 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 17:28:05 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question
In-Reply-To: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
References: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118CB@newserver.arneill-py.local>

In any case I would upgrade the memory to 256K. These chips are 4164,
they can be found on a variety of Apple // cards including for example
the extended 80-column card for the //e.

Michel.


-----Original Message-----
From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
[mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Mike Maginnis
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 4:27 PM
To: apple3-l at news.altair.com
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question

Several of the disks in my collection don't completely boot.  Basically,

it gets to the SOS version screen, and the disk drive stops spinning. 
The message doesn't go away and it never gets any further.  This is an 
earlier /// with 128K, serial number around 18000.

Is this a case of software developed for later ///'s with more 
capability, or an indication of a problem with this particular unit?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

- Mike
_______________________________________________
Apple3-L mailing list
Apple3-L at news.altair.com
https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Apr 18 14:21:47 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:21:47 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118CB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118CB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BCB4DBB.9090809@brouhaha.com>

Mike Maginnis wrote:
> This is an 
> earlier /// with 128K, serial number around 18000.

Michel Py wrote:
 > In any case I would upgrade the memory to 256K. These chips are 4164,

Early 128K machines (S/N under about 100,000) don't use the 4164.  They 
use 32 ordinary 16K DRAMs (4116 or equivalent), and 16 special 32K parts 
that consist of two 16K DRAMs in CLCC packages (Ceramic Leadless Chip 
Carrier) packaged on a single 18-pin ceramic substrate DIP.

Modifying the memory board in one of these early machines to use 64K 
DRAMs is non-trivial.  It's not simply a matter of swapping to 64K 
chips; doing that will both (1) not work, and (2) damage the 64K chips.  
To make this work correctly and without damage, you have to cut the +12V 
and -5V signals to the RAM sockets, wire the additional address line, 
change two PROMs on the main logic board, and possibly make other changes.

 > they can be found on a variety of Apple // cards including for example
 > the extended 80-column card for the //e.

The 4164 (or equivalent) are only found on early extended 80-column 
cards.  The later ones use two 64K*4 DRAMs rather than eight 64K*1.


From dave.ottalini at wap.org  Sun Apr 18 18:33:32 2010
From: dave.ottalini at wap.org (Dave Ottalini)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:33:32 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disks not booting question
In-Reply-To: <4BCB4DBB.9090809@brouhaha.com>
References: <4BCA43C8.9030107@gmail.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118CB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BCB4DBB.9090809@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <F9C0041E-BCDB-42D9-8877-1F346FC81487@wap.org>


Eric.. I'd first go through and reseat ALL the chips - use your thumb to gently push them back in. You'll hear lots of popping as you do. I'd also consider taking the memory board off by rocking it back and forth gently while pulling up on it, then reseating all chips. I'll betcha that might well take care of it. 

Also - check your internal drive to make sure it is working at the right speed. If you need instructs on how to do that, I can email them to you, but this can also be a cause for problems like this.

Finally, creating a new disk with fresh SOS.Kernel and SOS.Driver files along with a new copy of the SOS.Interp file might well also help. I hope your utilities disk IS working!


Dave 




From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 20 08:47:01 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:47:01 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
Message-ID: <D45A9AA2-32F3-4EBE-BF0B-806D7FAD4314@ti.com>

Hello to all of the List members!

I have become a owner of a Apple /// system recently and before I bombard the list with questions I like to introduce myself.

My first contact with Apple Computer was back in School when I attended a computer class.
As a special tread for "advanced" students we where allowed to program basic on the schools only Apple ][ .
Back then that was a thing! If you where a really outstanding Student you got a tour in the back-room and where shown a masterpiece of the time : An Olivetti M20 (Woa!)

I got myself an Apple ][ europlus clone and remained the only guy I knew who had an Apple until I got on the university campus.
I have to explain that I was born and raised in Germany and Apple never hit it great over there.
Commodore/Amiga was the computer of choice for nearly everybody back then and later the PC's.

Now we jump over my dark ages because I was also sucked into the PC world of Doom. ;-)

In the new Millennium I switched back to Apple as OSX was a natural fit for me and solved my PC troubles over night.
I also re-discovered my memories about my Apple ][ times , which are  the most creative times in my computer career and I started to acquire Apple ]['s .
While researching the part of Apple history which I was not aware about I discovered the story of the Apple /// and it catched my attention.
I was just hesitating to get one as I did not want to be distracted from my Apple ]['s.
But the killer argument was that the Apple /// had a Apple ][ emulation mode and finally I made my mind up and got one.

So bottom line, I am decent familiar with Apple ][ hard- and software but fairly new to the Apple ///.

Having now the real thing in front of me is triggering a lot of questions and I like to follow up on my introduction mail with a couple of separate mails with questions.

I really appreciate that this list exists and apologize upfront if I ask questions which have been answered a lot of times.

Is there something like an Mail-List archive I can consult before I start asking questions?

Wolfgang






From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 20 08:48:31 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:48:31 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
Message-ID: <5B3F8E3E-C526-43C8-9481-4FF3A13C2350@ti.com>

Hello to all of the List members!

I have become a owner of a Apple /// system recently and before I bombard the list with questions I like to introduce myself.

My first contact with Apple Computer was back in School when I attended a computer class.
As a special tread for "advanced" students we where allowed to program basic on the schools only Apple ][ .
Back then that was a thing! If you where a really outstanding Student you got a tour in the back-room and where shown a masterpiece of the time : An Olivetti M20 (Woa!)

I got myself an Apple ][ europlus clone and remained the only guy I knew who had an Apple until I got on the university campus.
I have to explain that I was born and raised in Germany and Apple never hit it great over there.
Commodore/Amiga was the computer of choice for nearly everybody back then and later the PC's.

Now we jump over my dark ages because I was also sucked into the PC world of Doom. ;-)

In the new Millennium I switched back to Apple as OSX was a natural fit for me and solved my PC troubles over night.
I also re-discovered my memories about my Apple ][ times , which are  the most creative times in my computer career and I started to acquire Apple ]['s .
While researching the part of Apple history which I was not aware about I discovered the story of the Apple /// and it catched my attention.
I was just hesitating to get one as I did not want to be distracted from my Apple ]['s.
But the killer argument was that the Apple /// had a Apple ][ emulation mode and finally I made my mind up and got one.

So bottom line, I am decent familiar with Apple ][ hard- and software but fairly new to the Apple ///.

Having now the real thing in front of me is triggering a lot of questions and I like to follow up on my introduction mail with a couple of separate mails with questions.

I really appreciate that this list exists and apologize upfront if I ask questions which have been answered a lot of times.

Is there something like an Mail-List archive I can consult before I start asking questions?

Wolfgang






From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 20 09:04:47 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:04:47 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Profile drive
Message-ID: <36B16C6C-1863-4922-8455-01D722720CE9@ti.com>

Hi all,

my first question:

I got with the system a profile 5MB drive.

SOS has the profile driver loaded but if I try to format the drive I get an IO error.
Depending on the SOS version I get an Error #11 or just plain and I/O error.

Unfortunately the profile came without the supporting software and I may miss something.
I have only the profile driver I got from the Apple3.org page.

In the profile manual I found that you need two disks to get the profile up and running.

Can someone guide me or send me the missing disks?

I am able to generate 5.25'' floppies from .dsk archives via my IIgs , so no need to snail-mail real floppies .


Regards,
Wolfgang




From david at attglobal.net  Tue Apr 20 12:13:12 2010
From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:13:12 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
Message-ID: <4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>

> Message: 1
> From: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
> Is there something like an Mail-List archive I can consult before I start asking questions?

Yes, this list itself is archived.  See:
http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/

> Message: 3
> From: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> my first question:
> 
> I got with the system a profile 5MB drive.
> 
> SOS has the profile driver loaded but if I try to format the drive I get an IO error.
> Depending on the SOS version I get an Error #11 or just plain and I/O error.

Can you do any file operations (list files, etc.) of the Profile with 
the system utility disks?

> Unfortunately the profile came without the supporting software and I may miss something.
> I have only the profile driver I got from the Apple3.org page.

There really isn't anything more or special to the Profile in terms of 
software.  The system utility disks should be able to manipulate the 
Profile.  If they can't, be sure that the driver is on the disk.

> In the profile manual I found that you need two disks to get the profile up and running.
> 
> Can someone guide me or send me the missing disks?

I don't think I've seen them...

> I am able to generate 5.25'' floppies from .dsk archives via my IIgs , so no need to snail-mail real floppies .

You can also generate floppies using ADTPro on the ///.

- David Schmdit

From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 20 14:30:20 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:30:20 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>

Hi Dave,
thanks for the link to the archives.

For the profile, no I can not do anything.
A volume listing shows the .profile but states it has an empty directory (Sorry forgot right now how the exact phrase is.
Like a unformatted Floppy.

When I do list the volumes the ready light on the Profile turns dark for a split second, so I hope this is a good sign.


I can load the drivers and list the profile driver settings, so I expect I have the driver active.


Is there any way I can test the profile or the interface card for functionality?

As I said the profile itself finish it's self test and the ready light is steady on.

The drive came with two cables , both look like a parallel printer cable just one has much less pins populated.(About 12 or so)
I had a look at the profile pinout from a internet document and decided that this could not be the right cable.

With the age of the drive and the cable it could likely possible that the cable has a broken wire.
I will check it this evening.






Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 20, 2010, at 11:13 AM, David Schmidt wrote:

>> Message: 1
>> From: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>> Is there something like an Mail-List archive I can consult before I start asking questions?
> 
> Yes, this list itself is archived.  See:
> http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/
> 
>> Message: 3
>> From: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> my first question:
>> 
>> I got with the system a profile 5MB drive.
>> 
>> SOS has the profile driver loaded but if I try to format the drive I get an IO error.
>> Depending on the SOS version I get an Error #11 or just plain and I/O error.
> 
> Can you do any file operations (list files, etc.) of the Profile with 
> the system utility disks?
> 
>> Unfortunately the profile came without the supporting software and I may miss something.
>> I have only the profile driver I got from the Apple3.org page.
> 
> There really isn't anything more or special to the Profile in terms of 
> software.  The system utility disks should be able to manipulate the 
> Profile.  If they can't, be sure that the driver is on the disk.
> 
>> In the profile manual I found that you need two disks to get the profile up and running.
>> 
>> Can someone guide me or send me the missing disks?
> 
> I don't think I've seen them...
> 
>> I am able to generate 5.25'' floppies from .dsk archives via my IIgs , so no need to snail-mail real floppies .
> 
> You can also generate floppies using ADTPro on the ///.
> 
> - David Schmdit
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From dave.ottalini at wap.org  Tue Apr 20 20:42:44 2010
From: dave.ottalini at wap.org (Dave Ottalini)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:42:44 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
	<C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>
Message-ID: <D4C2D352-32B7-461F-865E-D549E2CFD218@wap.org>

Wolfgang, make sure you start the Profile first - let it warm up and let the red light beat on and off. Once it is fully lit red, it is ready to go. System Utilities needs to not only include the .profile driver but also the formatter drivers. Make sure the Profile card is in slot 4 as that is the default setting (which you can change with System Utils)...

Also please see attachment info


Dave Ottalini

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From wkemper at ti.com  Wed Apr 21 08:53:49 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:53:49 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <D4C2D352-32B7-461F-865E-D549E2CFD218@wap.org>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
	<C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>
	<D4C2D352-32B7-461F-865E-D549E2CFD218@wap.org>
Message-ID: <A71370A4-7B3D-4C0E-A5A7-BE48FEEA93D9@ti.com>

Dave,
thanks a lot.

I was playing yesterday evening with the setup and at one point I got the error message about a missing formatter.
I have to say that together with the Apple /// I got plenty of disks and several SOS versions.

The Pascal 1.2 for example identifies two profile drives .profile and .profile2.
I may should try out those drivers and see if they can format the drive.

Another thing is that I get the same error message (I/O error) if I have the profile card in the Apple /// or not.
Don't know if this indicates a faulty IO card or not.

Tonight I plan to start from scratch and build a new SOS utility floppy with all necessary drivers.

Does anybody know if there are different versions of the profile driver?

My drive came with no software or manual , so I downloaded all from the web.




Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 20, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:

> Wolfgang, make sure you start the Profile first - let it warm up and let the red light beat on and off. Once it is fully lit red, it is ready to go. System Utilities needs to not only include the .profile driver but also the formatter drivers. Make sure the Profile card is in slot 4 as that is the default setting (which you can change with System Utils)...
> 
> Also please see attachment info
> 
> 
> Dave Ottalini
> 
> <A3Repair_ProFileSetup.pdf>


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 11:02:39 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 11:02:39 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <A71370A4-7B3D-4C0E-A5A7-BE48FEEA93D9@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
	<C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>
	<D4C2D352-32B7-461F-865E-D549E2CFD218@wap.org>
	<A71370A4-7B3D-4C0E-A5A7-BE48FEEA93D9@ti.com>
Message-ID: <BA61F7BF-CA17-410F-AB18-9828DE9CA39E@gmail.com>

Wolfgang,

I can send you one of my spare ProFile cards if there is concern about the interface.  I did exactly as you are doing, I built my own SOS Utility floppy years ago and marked it "Profile maintenance ONLY".  I think that is the best practice since there are so many other possible combinations that may or may not work.  I keep a couple copies of it to guard against failure.

Thanks,

Jeff

On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> Dave,
> thanks a lot.
> 
> I was playing yesterday evening with the setup and at one point I got the error message about a missing formatter.
> I have to say that together with the Apple /// I got plenty of disks and several SOS versions.
> 
> The Pascal 1.2 for example identifies two profile drives .profile and .profile2.
> I may should try out those drivers and see if they can format the drive.
> 
> Another thing is that I get the same error message (I/O error) if I have the profile card in the Apple /// or not.
> Don't know if this indicates a faulty IO card or not.
> 
> Tonight I plan to start from scratch and build a new SOS utility floppy with all necessary drivers.
> 
> Does anybody know if there are different versions of the profile driver?
> 
> My drive came with no software or manual , so I downloaded all from the web.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 20, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
> 
>> Wolfgang, make sure you start the Profile first - let it warm up and let the red light beat on and off. Once it is fully lit red, it is ready to go. System Utilities needs to not only include the .profile driver but also the formatter drivers. Make sure the Profile card is in slot 4 as that is the default setting (which you can change with System Utils)...
>> 
>> Also please see attachment info
>> 
>> 
>> Dave Ottalini
>> 
>> <A3Repair_ProFileSetup.pdf>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From wkemper at ti.com  Thu Apr 22 11:34:03 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:34:03 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] New Apple /// owner/user
In-Reply-To: <BA61F7BF-CA17-410F-AB18-9828DE9CA39E@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1271779200.23563.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BCDD298.6090508@attglobal.net>
	<C68F39E7-86C4-439B-A5AE-846E0489A38D@ti.com>
	<D4C2D352-32B7-461F-865E-D549E2CFD218@wap.org>
	<A71370A4-7B3D-4C0E-A5A7-BE48FEEA93D9@ti.com>
	<BA61F7BF-CA17-410F-AB18-9828DE9CA39E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A38CD717-74A0-40C9-854B-4FB47D0F5F26@ti.com>

Jeff,
thanks for your generous offer. I will keep this as my plan B if I fail to check out my card.

By looking at the schematics I expect to debug it in an afternoon.

There are just std 74LS . I can substitute some of them with parts I have done design work on.
The old 74LS had poor electro static protections, so it might happened that some IO's have been fried by handling.

Hopefully it the DM9334  is OK, that could be a problem to get .


Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
> I can send you one of my spare ProFile cards if there is concern about the interface.  I did exactly as you are doing, I built my own SOS Utility floppy years ago and marked it "Profile maintenance ONLY".  I think that is the best practice since there are so many other possible combinations that may or may not work.  I keep a couple copies of it to guard against failure.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> 
>> Dave,
>> thanks a lot.
>> 
>> I was playing yesterday evening with the setup and at one point I got the error message about a missing formatter.
>> I have to say that together with the Apple /// I got plenty of disks and several SOS versions.
>> 
>> The Pascal 1.2 for example identifies two profile drives .profile and .profile2.
>> I may should try out those drivers and see if they can format the drive.
>> 
>> Another thing is that I get the same error message (I/O error) if I have the profile card in the Apple /// or not.
>> Don't know if this indicates a faulty IO card or not.
>> 
>> Tonight I plan to start from scratch and build a new SOS utility floppy with all necessary drivers.
>> 
>> Does anybody know if there are different versions of the profile driver?
>> 
>> My drive came with no software or manual , so I downloaded all from the web.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
>> 
>>> Wolfgang, make sure you start the Profile first - let it warm up and let the red light beat on and off. Once it is fully lit red, it is ready to go. System Utilities needs to not only include the .profile driver but also the formatter drivers. Make sure the Profile card is in slot 4 as that is the default setting (which you can change with System Utils)...
>>> 
>>> Also please see attachment info
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dave Ottalini
>>> 
>>> <A3Repair_ProFileSetup.pdf>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Fri Apr 23 21:02:50 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:02:50 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
Message-ID: <6631EC12-88FE-498E-96AA-9144B6972571@die-kempers.de>

Hi,
I think I have read about that the apple mouse card would work in an Apple /// (emulation only or native too?)

Now that I am currently without "mass" storage working with one 140k Drive can end up in doing a lot of disk swapping.

Especially as I do backup my originals. I thought that with 256k ram this should be a breeze but nope it takes quite a lot swapping before the disk is copied.

Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk II's ?

By the way, I had planned to check out my profile card over the weekend but this might has to wait as I have to prepare for a business trip.

Regards, Wolfgang





From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Fri Apr 23 21:02:47 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:02:47 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// 5V ram card
Message-ID: <3F88795D-205F-426A-BD93-82F9D6C1F728@die-kempers.de>

Hi,
a question to all.

My Apple /// has on the bottom noted that it should be a 128k model but in fact it has 256k.

While installing the clock-chip I noticed that  I have three different 64kx1 makes on the board.
Original (Hitachi) Apple HM 4864-3 (could not decode the timestamp)
Mostek MK 4564N ( wk 23 of 1983)
Fujitsu MB 8264-20 (WK 25 of 1983) 

As all of my motherboard chips are 1980 or earlier I guess somebody has upgraded the board by adding rams.
Or was it repair?

Has a 128k unpopulated sockets or an different ram board?

I also noticed (better experienced by pain) that the 5W 20 Ohm ceramic resistor on the ram board gets over 100C warm.
Is this normal behavior? It is sitting right next to the rams and if they are not military graded their max operational range would be 85C.
Update: I just looked the Fujitsu's up and they are 125C graded. We do this today only for military and automotive.

Regards, Wolfgang









From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Fri Apr 23 23:01:24 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:01:24 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// 5V ram card
In-Reply-To: <3F88795D-205F-426A-BD93-82F9D6C1F728@die-kempers.de>
References: <3F88795D-205F-426A-BD93-82F9D6C1F728@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118D9@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> My Apple /// has on the bottom noted that it should be a 128k model
> but in fact it has 256k. While installing the clock-chip I noticed
that
> I have three different 64kx1 makes on the board. [..] I guess somebody
> has upgraded the board by adding rams. Or was it repair?

This is typical of early Apple /// for the European market. The previous
owner has scrounged 2 64K banks possibly from 2 different computers to
upgrade his A///. Many of these also came with the QWERTY keyboard
instead of the national keyboard layout. Note that on the A/// you can
have the QWERTY keyboard with the German character set.

> Has a 128k unpopulated sockets or an different ram board?

The 128K 5V card is indeed a 256K card half-populated. The 12V card is
different. I have never seen a 12v card with my own eyes, I don't think
it ever made it to Europe.

> I also noticed (better experienced by pain) that the 5W 20 Ohm ceramic
> resistor on the ram board gets over 100C warm. Is this normal
behavior?

Yes. I think they used it to mark cattle and when they built their HQ
they ate the cattle and put the resistor in the A/// :-D

Seriously now the A/// is the worst thermal design I have ever seen.
Basically it's an oven with the door closed. Even the lousy mini-atx PS
with the fan blowing hot hair inside the case does not come close as a
design flaw. Now that we have nearly silent fans, some serious case work
to ventilate it would greatly increase the life of the machine.

> I think I have read about that the apple mouse card would work in an
> Apple /// (emulation only or native too?)

Electrically, the card works. I don't know what kind of software would
use it though. The only one I think would be able to handle it would be
///EZP, never done that. I heard about a .console driver that had
copy/paste both with the keyboard and the mouse but never seen it.


> Especially as I do backup my originals. I thought that with 256k ram
this should
> be a breeze but nope it takes quite a lot swapping before the disk is
copied.

This one was everyone's pet peeve. The ultimate tool to backup
unprotected disks is Locksmith 6.0 on an A//. Nowadays though, the way
to go is to store .dsk images on a recent computer.


> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
II's ?

Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
care to comment where you are with that?

> my profile card over the weekend but this might has to wait

If the chips are not socketed (soldered directly), unless you are a
skilled desoldering operator with a good vacuum pump I encourage you to
sacrifice the chips by cutting the pins on the component side and
pulling the pins one-by-one instead of trying to desolder the entire
chip. You will waste a few euros worth of 74LS and will never know which
one was eventually bad, but this is nothing compared to the headaches
associated with breaking the metalized hole that connects both sides of
the PCB. In any case, socket everything with high-quality sockets that
can be soldered on both sides.

If you doubt the profile cable, there is nothing special about it. Flat
ribbon 25-pin cable with to-crimp DB25 connectors works just fine.

Michel.


From david at attglobal.net  Sat Apr 24 13:19:49 2010
From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 13:19:49 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
Message-ID: <4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>

> Michel Py wrote:
>> Wolfgang wrote:
>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
>> II's ?

Sure, I don't see why not.  It would have to be under Apple II 
emulation, though, and addressed as slot 1-4, depending on where you 
plugged it in.  I don't know for sure, but I don't think that there is a 
native SOS driver for the Disk II controller.

> Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
> a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
> lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
> and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
> care to comment where you are with that?

I've puzzled over the schematics for a while, but can't quite get it 
together.  So that one is on the shelf for the time being.

- David

From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 13:35:41 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 13:35:41 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
In-Reply-To: <4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
>> Michel Py wrote:
>>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
>>> II's ?
>
> Sure, I don't see why not. ?It would have to be under Apple II
> emulation, though, and addressed as slot 1-4, depending on where you
> plugged it in. ?I don't know for sure, but I don't think that there is a
> native SOS driver for the Disk II controller.

I have not seen one, either.  A driver would be tricky in native SOS
since Disk II was implemented around a 1MHz processor.  Processor
speed-up gear for the Apple ][ always had to struggle with that.

>> Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
>> a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
>> lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
>> and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
>> care to comment where you are with that?
>
> I've puzzled over the schematics for a while, but can't quite get it
> together. ?So that one is on the shelf for the time being.

I just wish I could remember >where< that hack was mentioned.  It was
published somewhere but I cannot find it in my magazine collection.

Wolfgang, to avoid wear on my ProFiles I switched over to using a CFFA
card a couple years ago.  Stupidly, I only bought one.  Unfortunately
the maker is out of stock, but he might know of someone willing to
sell one.  He is working on a new model that looks like it will not
fit in the /// but we'll see.  Project information is at:

http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php

It is very, very important to make backups of the CF cards.  I use a
Mac to make a block-level backup of them.  It is possible for them to
become corrupted if something goes awry.  I only had it happen once,
but the pain from having to hook up the ProFiles again and recopy all
the information taught me an important lesson :-)

Thanks,

Jeff

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Sat Apr 24 15:03:17 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:03:17 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
In-Reply-To: <q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com><4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118DA@newserver.arneill-py.local>

>> Wolfgang wrote:
>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run
>> two disk II's ?

> David Schmidt wrote:
> Sure, I don't see why not. ?It would have to be under Apple II
> emulation, though, and addressed as slot 1-4, depending on where
> you plugged it in.

That would work. A couple DiskII's, boot the emulation then locksmith 6.0 and you're probably in business.


>>> Michel Py wrote:
>>> David Schmidt is working on a hack to use a disk ][ on the A///; this
>>> has been done before but the pinout has been lost in aging memories.
>>> This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives and you would have only
>>> one external drive, but it is possible.

>> David Schmidt wrote:
>> I've puzzled over the schematics for a while, but can't quite get
>> it together. ?So that one is on the shelf for the time being.

> Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> I just wish I could remember >where< that hack was mentioned. It was
> published somewhere but I cannot find it in my magazine collection.

I have seen it; there was a hack with some 74LS on the cable.


> to avoid wear on my ProFiles I switched over to using a
> CFFA card a couple years ago. Stupidly, I only bought one.

I wish I bought one when there were still some; this is the way to go.

> http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php

I am a bit concerned by the new card; it seems longer than the existing one, I hope it still fits in the A/// slots. Jeff / David, how much room is left in the back of the existing card?


Michel.

From wkemper at ti.com  Sat Apr 24 18:09:14 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:09:14 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// 5V ram card
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118D9@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <3F88795D-205F-426A-BD93-82F9D6C1F728@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118D9@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <2D4AD6D6-DB6F-44DE-A640-4C85AA34D19E@ti.com>

Michel, 

thanks for your reply. First I have to say that my Apple /// is definitely an US model.
My name and my e-mail address do imply that I am european (Which I am) but I do not live there.
I left Germany in the past millennium.

Another thing, I have at first signed up under my work e-mail but I am switching to my home mail.

Apple Cooling:
Yesterday  I got from Fry's a little 12V ,20 dBA blower which I have mounted on the slot openings.
Works like a charm, the resistor reaches only 50C and the power supply casing is only lukewarm even after a day of continuously working.
I am currently doing some calculations to see if the 50 Ohm resistor is really needed.
The 12V attached to it was just to help out the weaker 5V line.
Maybe I should just clip it off and see if the ram still works but some number crunching forehand does not hurt.

Most of the other heat radiation comes now from under the keyboard.
I assume these are the VIA's and the CPU.

I was a little surprised to see that the processor is a 6502A, I thought they have used a 6502B.
Anyhow I will eventually swap the originals out and replace them with a modern WDC 6502 ( in CMOS technology) which do run much cooler.
Did work wonders in my Apple ][+. I have to dig around but I think I have also two WDC VIA chips somewhere.


Fixing the profile card:
All my IC's are in a socked, so no solder job needed :-)
Just plain replacing everything is a option but hurts my engineers pride .
Beside it would also be less fun.
Unfortunately a business trip popped up and I can not spend the time I need this weekend.

I work for TI as a design engineer and some of the 74-series devices have my engineering fingerprint on them.
I have boxes of engineering prototypes and some are even ceramic hand bonded DIP's.

I guess a hardcore collector or preservationist would now cry out in pain but I love to replace the original IC's with my prototypes.
You can call it some kind of vanity but this is how I make them my "personal" computer :-)

Cheers, Wolfgang






On Apr 23, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Michel Py wrote:

>> My Apple /// has on the bottom noted that it should be a 128k model
>> but in fact it has 256k. While installing the clock-chip I noticed
> that
>> I have three different 64kx1 makes on the board. [..] I guess somebody
>> has upgraded the board by adding rams. Or was it repair?
> 
> This is typical of early Apple /// for the European market. The previous
> owner has scrounged 2 64K banks possibly from 2 different computers to
> upgrade his A///. Many of these also came with the QWERTY keyboard
> instead of the national keyboard layout. Note that on the A/// you can
> have the QWERTY keyboard with the German character set.
> 
>> Has a 128k unpopulated sockets or an different ram board?
> 
> The 128K 5V card is indeed a 256K card half-populated. The 12V card is
> different. I have never seen a 12v card with my own eyes, I don't think
> it ever made it to Europe.
> 
>> I also noticed (better experienced by pain) that the 5W 20 Ohm ceramic
>> resistor on the ram board gets over 100C warm. Is this normal
> behavior?
> 
> Yes. I think they used it to mark cattle and when they built their HQ
> they ate the cattle and put the resistor in the A/// :-D
> 
> Seriously now the A/// is the worst thermal design I have ever seen.
> Basically it's an oven with the door closed. Even the lousy mini-atx PS
> with the fan blowing hot hair inside the case does not come close as a
> design flaw. Now that we have nearly silent fans, some serious case work
> to ventilate it would greatly increase the life of the machine.
> 
>> I think I have read about that the apple mouse card would work in an
>> Apple /// (emulation only or native too?)
> 
> Electrically, the card works. I don't know what kind of software would
> use it though. The only one I think would be able to handle it would be
> ///EZP, never done that. I heard about a .console driver that had
> copy/paste both with the keyboard and the mouse but never seen it.
> 
> 
>> Especially as I do backup my originals. I thought that with 256k ram
> this should
>> be a breeze but nope it takes quite a lot swapping before the disk is
> copied.
> 
> This one was everyone's pet peeve. The ultimate tool to backup
> unprotected disks is Locksmith 6.0 on an A//. Nowadays though, the way
> to go is to store .dsk images on a recent computer.
> 
> 
>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
> II's ?
> 
> Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
> a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
> lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
> and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
> care to comment where you are with that?
> 
>> my profile card over the weekend but this might has to wait
> 
> If the chips are not socketed (soldered directly), unless you are a
> skilled desoldering operator with a good vacuum pump I encourage you to
> sacrifice the chips by cutting the pins on the component side and
> pulling the pins one-by-one instead of trying to desolder the entire
> chip. You will waste a few euros worth of 74LS and will never know which
> one was eventually bad, but this is nothing compared to the headaches
> associated with breaking the metalized hole that connects both sides of
> the PCB. In any case, socket everything with high-quality sockets that
> can be soldered on both sides.
> 
> If you doubt the profile cable, there is nothing special about it. Flat
> ribbon 25-pin cable with to-crimp DB25 connectors works just fine.
> 
> Michel.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Sat Apr 24 18:16:39 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:16:39 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
In-Reply-To: <q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B80110E1-C440-4A87-86D3-FC97946E5592@ti.com>





On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Michel Py wrote:
>>>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
>>>> II's ?
>> 
>> Sure, I don't see why not.  It would have to be under Apple II
>> emulation, though, and addressed as slot 1-4, depending on where you
>> plugged it in.  I don't know for sure, but I don't think that there is a
>> native SOS driver for the Disk II controller.
> 
> I have not seen one, either.  A driver would be tricky in native SOS
> since Disk II was implemented around a 1MHz processor.  Processor
> speed-up gear for the Apple ][ always had to struggle with that.

I am just starting to work through the Apple /// documentation but I read that every driver can set the E-Register ($FFDF) bit 7 to 1 which will put the Apple /// in 1MHz instead of the 2Mhz.

The DiskII controller needs the specific Apple II timing to work correctly but this would be a starter.

As I said I am at the beginning with my understanding of the Apple /// so I might blur out stupid half-knowledge.

> 
>>> Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
>>> a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
>>> lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
>>> and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
>>> care to comment where you are with that?
>> 
>> I've puzzled over the schematics for a while, but can't quite get it
>> together.  So that one is on the shelf for the time being.
> 
> I just wish I could remember >where< that hack was mentioned.  It was
> published somewhere but I cannot find it in my magazine collection.
> 
> Wolfgang, to avoid wear on my ProFiles I switched over to using a CFFA
> card a couple years ago.  Stupidly, I only bought one.  Unfortunately
> the maker is out of stock, but he might know of someone willing to
> sell one.  He is working on a new model that looks like it will not
> fit in the /// but we'll see.  Project information is at:
> 
> http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
> 
> It is very, very important to make backups of the CF cards.  I use a
> Mac to make a block-level backup of them.  It is possible for them to
> become corrupted if something goes awry.  I only had it happen once,
> but the pain from having to hook up the ProFiles again and recopy all
> the information taught me an important lesson :-)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Sun Apr 25 10:53:44 2010
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl Casner)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:53:44 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] What Apple II cards do work in an Apple III
In-Reply-To: <B80110E1-C440-4A87-86D3-FC97946E5592@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<B80110E1-C440-4A87-86D3-FC97946E5592@ti.com>
Message-ID: <914A3D9B-635D-47A6-AFB1-23F9FE22947F@cybermesa.com>


Guten Tag Wolfgang,

Not sure if this will help with your Disk II support in the Apple ///, but I will send you in seperate emails the source code for the Apple /// floppy disk driver and the formatter driver. The disk driver is part of SOS itself and the formatter is a seperate driver which resides in the SOS driver file. Also, a minimal disk driver is built into the Apple /// ROM since the machine at startup needed a way to boot from the floppy drive and couldn't use SOS's driver for this.

- David Craig

On April 24, 2010, at 4:16 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 1:19 PM, David Schmidt <david at attglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Michel Py wrote:
>>>>> Wolfgang wrote:
>>>>> Would it be possible to insert a disk II controller and run two disk
>>>>> II's ?
>>> 
>>> Sure, I don't see why not.  It would have to be under Apple II
>>> emulation, though, and addressed as slot 1-4, depending on where you
>>> plugged it in.  I don't know for sure, but I don't think that there is a
>>> native SOS driver for the Disk II controller.
>> 
>> I have not seen one, either.  A driver would be tricky in native SOS
>> since Disk II was implemented around a 1MHz processor.  Processor
>> speed-up gear for the Apple ][ always had to struggle with that.
> 
> I am just starting to work through the Apple /// documentation but I read that every driver can set the E-Register ($FFDF) bit 7 to 1 which will put the Apple /// in 1MHz instead of the 2Mhz.
> 
> The DiskII controller needs the specific Apple II timing to work correctly but this would be a starter.
> 
> As I said I am at the beginning with my understanding of the Apple /// so I might blur out stupid half-knowledge.
> 
>> 
>>>> Never seen that done; however David Schmidt is working on a hack to use
>>>> a disk ][ on the A///; this has been done before but the pinout has been
>>>> lost in aging memories. This breaks the daisy-chain on external drives
>>>> and you would have only one external drive, but it is possible. David,
>>>> care to comment where you are with that?
>>> 
>>> I've puzzled over the schematics for a while, but can't quite get it
>>> together.  So that one is on the shelf for the time being.
>> 
>> I just wish I could remember >where< that hack was mentioned.  It was
>> published somewhere but I cannot find it in my magazine collection.
>> 
>> Wolfgang, to avoid wear on my ProFiles I switched over to using a CFFA
>> card a couple years ago.  Stupidly, I only bought one.  Unfortunately
>> the maker is out of stock, but he might know of someone willing to
>> sell one.  He is working on a new model that looks like it will not
>> fit in the /// but we'll see.  Project information is at:
>> 
>> http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
>> 
>> It is very, very important to make backups of the CF cards.  I use a
>> Mac to make a block-level backup of them.  It is possible for them to
>> become corrupted if something goes awry.  I only had it happen once,
>> but the pain from having to hook up the ProFiles again and recopy all
>> the information taught me an important lesson :-)
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l



From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Sun Apr 25 11:13:31 2010
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl Casner)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:13:31 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>


Hello,

o	SOS DISK /// DRIVER

The disk /// driver starts in the SOS source listing I attached earlier on page 157 and has page title containing "DISK /// DRIVER".

o	APPLE /// "FUNNY MODE"

The first source line on this page is interesting:

TEST   EQU  0      ;FOR FUNNY-MODE TESTING

It mentions the ///'s "funny mode". This was a special hardware mode which allowed the ///'s Apple II emulation mode to access part of the ///'s hardware which was normally disabled when the Apple II emulation started. Apple used this mode during the ///'s development to test various /// features (e.g. faster CPU operation, extended addressing) while working in the simpler Apple II emulation mode. This mode was also

I have a detailed Apple internal development memo about this mode which describes it use and problems:

Funny Mode and SOS - Implications for the Apple ///
Bob Etheredge - July 17, 1981 - 7 pages

One of Apple's /// developers commented about "funny mode" in an email in which he called it "Satan Mode":

> "Satan Mode," a name I made up. Andy Hertzfeld discovered that you could
> use the /// as a II with access to the various features, IF you didn't 
> require ALL the hardware compatibility that the "Apple II switch" enabled. 
> 
> Initial attempts to use it were risky, because there were occasional things 
> you'd forget about and you'd just crash. He then created a "Satan Mode 
> Boot" diskette, which I later used to run the SubLogic FS-1 flight 
> simulator at the increased processor speed. 
> 
> I don't believe anyone bothered to try using bank-switching, extended 
> indirect addressing, or 80-column video in Satan Mode; it was a novelty 
> that was neat but didn't become very popular. 
> 
> Once you flipped the /// into II Emulation Mode, you couldn't flip it out 
> without a reset, nor could you access any of the advanced features.

o	"XDOS" -- APPLE II PRODOS

This memo is also interesting since it discusses "XDOS" which was Apple's internal name for the Apple II ProDOS OS which was based on SOS.

This memo is part of a large collection of /// development memos I obtained from a former /// developer many years ago. There are I believe around 400-500 pages of memos here which fill a large notebook. Fascinating reading (if you like stuff like this).

Also, here's a recent comment by the creator of ProDOS about its history:

http://homepage.mac.com/cliff_huston/.public/Offering/ProDOS/ProDOS.html

Apple II ProDOS, introduced in 1982, almost didn't ship.  The project was cancelled just as it was finishing up and preparing for introduction.  There was a great concern within Apple as to whether or not the introduction of ProDOS would cause confusion in the market place.  After all, it offered the same file system capabilities as Apple III SOS - including direct support for hard drives, and enabled the porting of some of the most popular Apple III productivity software onto the Apple II.  At the time, the Apple III was Apple's direct answer to IBM, and Apple II was targeted for education, home, and personal use.  Wouldn't ProDOS muddle the differentiation?  And with Lisa already shipping, and Macintosh on the way, shouldn't the Apple II be expected to reach its retirement age in a year or two?  All very good concerns to consider!

Well, Lisa wasn't selling very well, the Apple III was barely turning a profit, and Macintosh was still more than a year away... and the Apple II was still rising in sales rates!  A meeting of the Apple Board of Directors decided the matter.  ProDOS would be offered, giving Apple II users a choice of operating systems and access to more professional software and hardware.  The message was clear:  product "turf" would be decided by the marketplace, not divided and protected for the various Apple divisions.  This allowed Macintosh to undermine Lisa's market, the Apple II line to extend to the Apple IIGS (which competed with low end Macintoshes), and later on the iBook to be offered when the PowerBook dominated.  The long term benefit has been a healthy Apple Incorporated!

- David Craig

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Shirl Casner <shirlgato at cybermesa.com>
> Date: April 25, 2010 8:55:11 AM MDT
> To: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
> Cc: Jeff Marraccini <jeff.marraccini at gmail.com>, Michel Py <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
> Subject: Apple /// source code -- SOS
> 
> - David Craig


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sun Apr 25 15:56:48 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:56:48 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
Message-ID: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>

Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a Disk ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had a quick look at the Disk /// analog schematic.

Compared to the Disk ][ pinouts I see only these differences :

Pin  Name
22	EnableB   (Mapped to 21 on J2 daisy chain connector)
23   A][_B
26	Slot    
14   EnableA   (Which is Enable on the Disk ][ and is also mapped to Pin 22 on J2)

I found one Pin which I could not  match to a pin. That is Enable_bar on J2, anyone nows more about it?
It connects to pin K (-mtr on)

Assuming Enable A doubles as Enable on a disk][.

Now my speculation starts:

As EnableB seems obvious, I have no good understanding of A][_bar and Slot.

Looking on what the three signal do, I would expect that some external logic in front of a disk][ would simply decode if the second drive is addressed and enable the drive on pin 14
So in other words one had to cut off pin 14 on the ribbon cable ,analyze Pin 22,23 and 26 with some logic and drive pin 14 on the disk ][ if the Apple /// is addressing the second drive.

Speculating even more I would assume that the 4 drive selection is done by having two slots of two drives each.
Ignoring that I do not know what A][ is good for, maybe just to avoid to have 4 drives under emulation mode?
Looks not too wrong as you can override the slot logic with A][_b  (Between the two 2003 drivers) 
So the decoder could be expanded to add more disk][ drives so that you would end up with three external Disk][ and one internal disk///

I will stop here because I feel I get carried away :-)

Hopefully I will have next week to analyze the SOS listing, it should be possible to verify if my assumptions are right.

Regards, Wolfgang







From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Tue Apr 27 00:03:51 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:03:51 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>

Wolfgang,

> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a
> Disk ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had.
> a quick look at the Disk /// analog schematic.

The hack indeed is related to drive selection; all the other signals are
compatible.
I will paste below the email I sent to David a while ago about this very
topic.

On a related topic, and given the availability of a ///+ to disk///
adapter, here is what I remember:

The ///+ external floppy connector was designed to use the Unidisk as an
external floppy. Disk/// was to be discontinued. As far as I remember,
it was widely speculated that connecting a duodisk to the external
floppy port of a ///+ would result in the first drive of the duodisk
being usable as .d2 and the second drive being unusable. For the same
reason it was also widely speculated that daisy-chaining another unidisk
would not work either.

Comparing the pinout of the "old" diskII interface (with one cable for
each drive) with the pinout of the "new" diskII interface (for
unidisk/duodisk) will likely shed some light on this.

In short: The unidisk is a stripped-down version of the disk ///. It
does daisy chain, but only one drive. The duodisk is two unidisks
daisy-chained together, which is why there is no uplink port. The ///+
supports only 2 drives: the built-in one which is basically a unidisk
and the second external one. Prove me wrong.

Topic I would not waste time on: getting more than 2 total floppies
working on a /// (internal and external). This is a non-issue: a ///
without a ProFile or similar is worthless.


> I'd like you to confirm something; open the Apple /// and confirm that

> the cable going to the external floppy connector comes from .d1. There

> must be another cable from the motherboard to .d1
> 
> Then you need a digital multimeter to assess the signal voltage.
> Although I believe everything is 5V TTL, one is never careful enough 
> with old hardware. The pins of interest are mostly 14, 21, 22, 23 and 
> 26. Build a little table of which ones and on and off in 3 locations:
> 
> .d1 input
> .d1 output (or .d2 input)
> .d2 output
> 
> In 6 situations:
> 
> 1 native, no floppy access
> 2 native, .d1 access
> 3 native, .d2 access
> 4 a][ emulation no floppy access
> 5 a][ emulation s6,d1 access
> 6 a][ emulation s6,d2 access
> 
> If you have more than one external disk///, also try for .d3 / s5,d1
> 
> I believe this will lead to the solution.
> 
> I suspect that a large part of the solution would be to route pin 21 
> from the a/// connector to pin 14 of the disk][ connector.




-----Original Message-----
From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
[mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Postmaster
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:57 PM
To: Apple///
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///

Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a Disk
][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had a quick
look at the Disk /// analog schematic.

Compared to the Disk ][ pinouts I see only these differences :

Pin  Name
22	EnableB   (Mapped to 21 on J2 daisy chain connector)
23   A][_B
26	Slot    
14   EnableA   (Which is Enable on the Disk ][ and is also mapped to Pin
22 on J2)

I found one Pin which I could not  match to a pin. That is Enable_bar on
J2, anyone nows more about it?
It connects to pin K (-mtr on)

Assuming Enable A doubles as Enable on a disk][.

Now my speculation starts:

As EnableB seems obvious, I have no good understanding of A][_bar and
Slot.

Looking on what the three signal do, I would expect that some external
logic in front of a disk][ would simply decode if the second drive is
addressed and enable the drive on pin 14
So in other words one had to cut off pin 14 on the ribbon cable ,analyze
Pin 22,23 and 26 with some logic and drive pin 14 on the disk ][ if the
Apple /// is addressing the second drive.

Speculating even more I would assume that the 4 drive selection is done
by having two slots of two drives each.
Ignoring that I do not know what A][ is good for, maybe just to avoid to
have 4 drives under emulation mode?
Looks not too wrong as you can override the slot logic with A][_b
(Between the two 2003 drivers) 
So the decoder could be expanded to add more disk][ drives so that you
would end up with three external Disk][ and one internal disk///

I will stop here because I feel I get carried away :-)

Hopefully I will have next week to analyze the SOS listing, it should be
possible to verify if my assumptions are right.

Regards, Wolfgang






_______________________________________________
Apple3-L mailing list
Apple3-L at news.altair.com
https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 27 09:57:11 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:57:11 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>

Hi Michel,

yesterday while sitting sitting an a plane I was speculating about the Unidisk.
The Apple /// is somehow the missing link in a lot of cases.
I do not have the pinout of the Unidisk connector at my hands right now but I think to remember that there where quite some differences between Disk II and Unidisk. 
The Disk II to Disk III seems quite straight forward and I still hope to build a kind "hub" for the tree external drives.

In the one week I have now the Apple/// I discovered three projects for me and I think I should work them down before I get lost in discovering new challenges.

One thing which has solved a problem but gave a new challenge was that I pulled the CFFA card out of my Apple IIe and put it into the Apple ///.
The good thing, I have now BOS installed together with Pascal. Which is nice as Pascal runs now entirely from CF card, no external Floppy needed.
The challenge: I think the CFFA seems to interfere sometimes with program execution.
ADT will not run as long as the CFFA card is in its slot3 . So I like t understand why this is and how I can fix it.
Besides my Memory test, when run from the dealer diagnostic, seems to fail when the CFFA is in the Apple /// but I have to dig into that a little bit, it is a first impression. The memory self test at start up runs fine.

Project two and priority no One is still my failing Profile drive. If I do not get the time to do a proper failure analysis done this week I will just replace all IC's on the card on the weekend to make sure I fetch the problem (could be a big surprise if the profile still not work and it is maybe the profile drive which has a problem). Anyhow this should be done by next Sunday and I have now an alternative , the CFFA card.

Project three is the 5W resistor on the memory board. Right now I have 50% confidence level that I can simply clip off the 12V.
This is just a question of doing it or not. As soon as I can convince myself that I can not damage anything I will just do it.
As a second thought I was thinking to replace the resistor with a voltage regulator but this is not a good fix in therms of getting rid of the heat. At least I can relocate the heat source to either outside the housing or somewhere it will get better cooling.
Something I should able to do quickly, it is just swinging the solder iron :-)

So the Disk II project has to wait until I have done the other two actions.
Even if with the CFFA the need for an external disk drive has been not so hot anymore , it would be a nice to have.
I am watching an eBay auction for a disk /// but I might not be willing to shell out too much money for it.
At least not as long I have hopes to add a cheaper Disk II with a little hack.
On the other hand if someone on the list has a spare Disk /// and is willing to sell for $20 I will gladly take it.
The Disk II project would not really suffer because right now I think it is a doable fix and I want to try it anyhow.

Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:03 PM, Michel Py wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
>> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a
>> Disk ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had.
>> a quick look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
> 
> The hack indeed is related to drive selection; all the other signals are
> compatible.
> I will paste below the email I sent to David a while ago about this very
> topic.
> 
> On a related topic, and given the availability of a ///+ to disk///
> adapter, here is what I remember:
> 
> The ///+ external floppy connector was designed to use the Unidisk as an
> external floppy. Disk/// was to be discontinued. As far as I remember,
> it was widely speculated that connecting a duodisk to the external
> floppy port of a ///+ would result in the first drive of the duodisk
> being usable as .d2 and the second drive being unusable. For the same
> reason it was also widely speculated that daisy-chaining another unidisk
> would not work either.
> 
> Comparing the pinout of the "old" diskII interface (with one cable for
> each drive) with the pinout of the "new" diskII interface (for
> unidisk/duodisk) will likely shed some light on this.
> 
> In short: The unidisk is a stripped-down version of the disk ///. It
> does daisy chain, but only one drive. The duodisk is two unidisks
> daisy-chained together, which is why there is no uplink port. The ///+
> supports only 2 drives: the built-in one which is basically a unidisk
> and the second external one. Prove me wrong.
> 
> Topic I would not waste time on: getting more than 2 total floppies
> working on a /// (internal and external). This is a non-issue: a ///
> without a ProFile or similar is worthless.
> 
> 
>> I'd like you to confirm something; open the Apple /// and confirm that
> 
>> the cable going to the external floppy connector comes from .d1. There
> 
>> must be another cable from the motherboard to .d1
>> 
>> Then you need a digital multimeter to assess the signal voltage.
>> Although I believe everything is 5V TTL, one is never careful enough 
>> with old hardware. The pins of interest are mostly 14, 21, 22, 23 and 
>> 26. Build a little table of which ones and on and off in 3 locations:
>> 
>> .d1 input
>> .d1 output (or .d2 input)
>> .d2 output
>> 
>> In 6 situations:
>> 
>> 1 native, no floppy access
>> 2 native, .d1 access
>> 3 native, .d2 access
>> 4 a][ emulation no floppy access
>> 5 a][ emulation s6,d1 access
>> 6 a][ emulation s6,d2 access
>> 
>> If you have more than one external disk///, also try for .d3 / s5,d1
>> 
>> I believe this will lead to the solution.
>> 
>> I suspect that a large part of the solution would be to route pin 21 
>> from the a/// connector to pin 14 of the disk][ connector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
> [mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Postmaster
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:57 PM
> To: Apple///
> Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
> 
> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a Disk
> ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had a quick
> look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
> 
> Compared to the Disk ][ pinouts I see only these differences :
> 
> Pin  Name
> 22	EnableB   (Mapped to 21 on J2 daisy chain connector)
> 23   A][_B
> 26	Slot    
> 14   EnableA   (Which is Enable on the Disk ][ and is also mapped to Pin
> 22 on J2)
> 
> I found one Pin which I could not  match to a pin. That is Enable_bar on
> J2, anyone nows more about it?
> It connects to pin K (-mtr on)
> 
> Assuming Enable A doubles as Enable on a disk][.
> 
> Now my speculation starts:
> 
> As EnableB seems obvious, I have no good understanding of A][_bar and
> Slot.
> 
> Looking on what the three signal do, I would expect that some external
> logic in front of a disk][ would simply decode if the second drive is
> addressed and enable the drive on pin 14
> So in other words one had to cut off pin 14 on the ribbon cable ,analyze
> Pin 22,23 and 26 with some logic and drive pin 14 on the disk ][ if the
> Apple /// is addressing the second drive.
> 
> Speculating even more I would assume that the 4 drive selection is done
> by having two slots of two drives each.
> Ignoring that I do not know what A][ is good for, maybe just to avoid to
> have 4 drives under emulation mode?
> Looks not too wrong as you can override the slot logic with A][_b
> (Between the two 2003 drivers) 
> So the decoder could be expanded to add more disk][ drives so that you
> would end up with three external Disk][ and one internal disk///
> 
> I will stop here because I feel I get carried away :-)
> 
> Hopefully I will have next week to analyze the SOS listing, it should be
> possible to verify if my assumptions are right.
> 
> Regards, Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 27 10:08:35 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:08:35 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>

Jeff,David,

In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
I have some questions for you.

1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
     So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
     I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
2) So far I have seen this problem :
     ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
        and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?

			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.

 
Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

>>> breaks


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 11:45:46 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:45:46 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
Message-ID: <B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>

Wolfgang,

Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.

I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.

I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.

Thanks,

Jeff

On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> Jeff,David,
> 
> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
> I have some questions for you.
> 
> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>     So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>     I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>     ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>        and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
> 
> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>>>> breaks
> 

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From louiss at gate.net  Tue Apr 27 18:43:38 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:43:38 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>

I have a late model ///+  with the new type floppy drive connector.  The 
computer came with an adapter for this connector which allows the 
old-style drives to be plugged into it.

I am not quite sure if this contradicts your point, but I have 
daisy-chained three Disk ///s to this port.  At the same time, I have a 
ProFile connected to a ProFile card, and 3.5 " drive connected to a card 
(I forget the name of the card, I think it says something like ASCO on it).

I am not sure why you call the internal drive the equivalent of a 
Unidisk.  It is the same as the drive on a ///.

Louis

On 4/27/2010 12:03 AM, Michel Py wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
>    
>> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a
>> Disk ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had.
>> a quick look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
>>      
> The hack indeed is related to drive selection; all the other signals are
> compatible.
> I will paste below the email I sent to David a while ago about this very
> topic.
>
> On a related topic, and given the availability of a ///+ to disk///
> adapter, here is what I remember:
>
> The ///+ external floppy connector was designed to use the Unidisk as an
> external floppy. Disk/// was to be discontinued. As far as I remember,
> it was widely speculated that connecting a duodisk to the external
> floppy port of a ///+ would result in the first drive of the duodisk
> being usable as .d2 and the second drive being unusable. For the same
> reason it was also widely speculated that daisy-chaining another unidisk
> would not work either.
>
> Comparing the pinout of the "old" diskII interface (with one cable for
> each drive) with the pinout of the "new" diskII interface (for
> unidisk/duodisk) will likely shed some light on this.
>
> In short: The unidisk is a stripped-down version of the disk ///. It
> does daisy chain, but only one drive. The duodisk is two unidisks
> daisy-chained together, which is why there is no uplink port. The ///+
> supports only 2 drives: the built-in one which is basically a unidisk
> and the second external one. Prove me wrong.
>
> Topic I would not waste time on: getting more than 2 total floppies
> working on a /// (internal and external). This is a non-issue: a ///
> without a ProFile or similar is worthless.
>
>
>    
>> I'd like you to confirm something; open the Apple /// and confirm that
>>      
>    
>> the cable going to the external floppy connector comes from .d1. There
>>      
>    
>> must be another cable from the motherboard to .d1
>>
>> Then you need a digital multimeter to assess the signal voltage.
>> Although I believe everything is 5V TTL, one is never careful enough
>> with old hardware. The pins of interest are mostly 14, 21, 22, 23 and
>> 26. Build a little table of which ones and on and off in 3 locations:
>>
>> .d1 input
>> .d1 output (or .d2 input)
>> .d2 output
>>
>> In 6 situations:
>>
>> 1 native, no floppy access
>> 2 native, .d1 access
>> 3 native, .d2 access
>> 4 a][ emulation no floppy access
>> 5 a][ emulation s6,d1 access
>> 6 a][ emulation s6,d2 access
>>
>> If you have more than one external disk///, also try for .d3 / s5,d1
>>
>> I believe this will lead to the solution.
>>
>> I suspect that a large part of the solution would be to route pin 21
>> from the a/// connector to pin 14 of the disk][ connector.
>>      
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
> [mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Postmaster
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:57 PM
> To: Apple///
> Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
>
> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a Disk
> ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had a quick
> look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
>
> Compared to the Disk ][ pinouts I see only these differences :
>
> Pin  Name
> 22	EnableB   (Mapped to 21 on J2 daisy chain connector)
> 23   A][_B
> 26	Slot
> 14   EnableA   (Which is Enable on the Disk ][ and is also mapped to Pin
> 22 on J2)
>
> I found one Pin which I could not  match to a pin. That is Enable_bar on
> J2, anyone nows more about it?
> It connects to pin K (-mtr on)
>
> Assuming Enable A doubles as Enable on a disk][.
>
> Now my speculation starts:
>
> As EnableB seems obvious, I have no good understanding of A][_bar and
> Slot.
>
> Looking on what the three signal do, I would expect that some external
> logic in front of a disk][ would simply decode if the second drive is
> addressed and enable the drive on pin 14
> So in other words one had to cut off pin 14 on the ribbon cable ,analyze
> Pin 22,23 and 26 with some logic and drive pin 14 on the disk ][ if the
> Apple /// is addressing the second drive.
>
> Speculating even more I would assume that the 4 drive selection is done
> by having two slots of two drives each.
> Ignoring that I do not know what A][ is good for, maybe just to avoid to
> have 4 drives under emulation mode?
> Looks not too wrong as you can override the slot logic with A][_b
> (Between the two 2003 drivers)
> So the decoder could be expanded to add more disk][ drives so that you
> would end up with three external Disk][ and one internal disk///
>
> I will stop here because I feel I get carried away :-)
>
> Hopefully I will have next week to analyze the SOS listing, it should be
> possible to verify if my assumptions are right.
>
> Regards, Wolfgang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From wkemper at ti.com  Tue Apr 27 19:12:23 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:12:23 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>

Jeff,
I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .

Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)

I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.

I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?

Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
> 
> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
> 
> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> 
>> Jeff,David,
>> 
>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>> I have some questions for you.
>> 
>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>    So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>    I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>    ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>       and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>> 
>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>> 
>>>>> breaks
>> 
> 


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Tue Apr 27 21:57:26 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:57:26 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Louis Schulman wrote:
> I have a late model ///+  with the new type floppy drive connector.
> The computer came with an adapter for this connector which allows
> the old-style drives to be plugged into it.

> I am not quite sure if this contradicts your point, but
> I have daisy-chained three Disk ///s to this port.

It does, but thanks for the precision! 

> I am not sure why you call the internal drive the equivalent of
> a Unidisk.  It is the same as the drive on a ///.

Speculation, as you are the first person I have talked to who ever
connected more than one drive to a ///+

Michel.

On 4/27/2010 12:03 AM, Michel Py wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
>    
>> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a
>> Disk ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had.
>> a quick look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
>>      
> The hack indeed is related to drive selection; all the other signals
are
> compatible.
> I will paste below the email I sent to David a while ago about this
very
> topic.
>
> On a related topic, and given the availability of a ///+ to disk///
> adapter, here is what I remember:
>
> The ///+ external floppy connector was designed to use the Unidisk as
an
> external floppy. Disk/// was to be discontinued. As far as I remember,
> it was widely speculated that connecting a duodisk to the external
> floppy port of a ///+ would result in the first drive of the duodisk
> being usable as .d2 and the second drive being unusable. For the same
> reason it was also widely speculated that daisy-chaining another
unidisk
> would not work either.
>
> Comparing the pinout of the "old" diskII interface (with one cable for
> each drive) with the pinout of the "new" diskII interface (for
> unidisk/duodisk) will likely shed some light on this.
>
> In short: The unidisk is a stripped-down version of the disk ///. It
> does daisy chain, but only one drive. The duodisk is two unidisks
> daisy-chained together, which is why there is no uplink port. The ///+
> supports only 2 drives: the built-in one which is basically a unidisk
> and the second external one. Prove me wrong.
>
> Topic I would not waste time on: getting more than 2 total floppies
> working on a /// (internal and external). This is a non-issue: a ///
> without a ProFile or similar is worthless.
>
>
>    
>> I'd like you to confirm something; open the Apple /// and confirm
that
>>      
>    
>> the cable going to the external floppy connector comes from .d1.
There
>>      
>    
>> must be another cable from the motherboard to .d1
>>
>> Then you need a digital multimeter to assess the signal voltage.
>> Although I believe everything is 5V TTL, one is never careful enough
>> with old hardware. The pins of interest are mostly 14, 21, 22, 23 and
>> 26. Build a little table of which ones and on and off in 3 locations:
>>
>> .d1 input
>> .d1 output (or .d2 input)
>> .d2 output
>>
>> In 6 situations:
>>
>> 1 native, no floppy access
>> 2 native, .d1 access
>> 3 native, .d2 access
>> 4 a][ emulation no floppy access
>> 5 a][ emulation s6,d1 access
>> 6 a][ emulation s6,d2 access
>>
>> If you have more than one external disk///, also try for .d3 / s5,d1
>>
>> I believe this will lead to the solution.
>>
>> I suspect that a large part of the solution would be to route pin 21
>> from the a/// connector to pin 14 of the disk][ connector.
>>      
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com
> [mailto:apple3-l-bounces at news.altair.com] On Behalf Of Postmaster
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:57 PM
> To: Apple///
> Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
>
> Triggered by the comment that there was a possibility to connect a
Disk
> ][ to the Apple /// just by adding some glue logic I have had a quick
> look at the Disk /// analog schematic.
>
> Compared to the Disk ][ pinouts I see only these differences :
>
> Pin  Name
> 22	EnableB   (Mapped to 21 on J2 daisy chain connector)
> 23   A][_B
> 26	Slot
> 14   EnableA   (Which is Enable on the Disk ][ and is also mapped to
Pin
> 22 on J2)
>
> I found one Pin which I could not  match to a pin. That is Enable_bar
on
> J2, anyone nows more about it?
> It connects to pin K (-mtr on)
>
> Assuming Enable A doubles as Enable on a disk][.
>
> Now my speculation starts:
>
> As EnableB seems obvious, I have no good understanding of A][_bar and
> Slot.
>
> Looking on what the three signal do, I would expect that some external
> logic in front of a disk][ would simply decode if the second drive is
> addressed and enable the drive on pin 14
> So in other words one had to cut off pin 14 on the ribbon cable
,analyze
> Pin 22,23 and 26 with some logic and drive pin 14 on the disk ][ if
the
> Apple /// is addressing the second drive.
>
> Speculating even more I would assume that the 4 drive selection is
done
> by having two slots of two drives each.
> Ignoring that I do not know what A][ is good for, maybe just to avoid
to
> have 4 drives under emulation mode?
> Looks not too wrong as you can override the slot logic with A][_b
> (Between the two 2003 drivers)
> So the decoder could be expanded to add more disk][ drives so that you
> would end up with three external Disk][ and one internal disk///
>
> I will stop here because I feel I get carried away :-)
>
> Hopefully I will have next week to analyze the SOS listing, it should
be
> possible to verify if my assumptions are right.
>
> Regards, Wolfgang
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed Apr 28 03:30:13 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:30:13 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] X-ProFile
In-Reply-To: <4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E6@newserver.arneill-py.local>

In any case, has anyone used this on a /// or ///+ ?
http://sigmasevensystems.com/xprofile.html

If I had a Lisa I would love this; I don't think there is any modern
alternative. On a Sara, this is more gear than a CFFA, as it appears to
require the ProFile controller. Also, this states that here is a 5MB
limit with SOS, but I can vividly remember hacking the .profile driver
on a drunken night to accommodate any size under 32MB.

Any thoughts?


On the side, a note about the ///+: as far as I know, it never made it
to Europe. This is possibly why herr Wolfgang and myself have never had
one in production. On the bright side, we never had to deal with the
earlier ones (possibly with the 12V RAM card) that were so hot that tech
support advised to drop them from a height of 3ft to reseat the chips
either....

Michel.


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed Apr 28 04:21:37 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:21:37 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> yesterday while sitting sitting an a plane I was speculating about the
> Unidisk. The Apple /// is somehow the missing link in a lot of cases.

Yeah one being AppleWorks..... was called 3 EZ-pieces :P Developed on
the ///. ProDos comes to mind too :P


About the Fry's slot fan, please post a link to photos...Great idea.
[I have a Kensington fan on both my ][+ and my //e]
I would suggest plugging the unused slots to maximize the amount of
fresh air circulated from the front.


> I do not have the pinout of the Unidisk connector at my hands
> right now but I think to remember that there where quite some
> differences between Disk II and Unidisk.

I beg to disagree; despite the important feedback just sent by Louis
(about daisy-chaining more than 1 drive on a ///+), a quick look at an
"older" disk II controller side-by-side with a "newer" disk II
controller shall convince you otherwise.


> Project two and priority no One is still my failing Profile drive.

Consider this item:
http://cgi.ebay.com.my/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80075&item=200
401692744
Quite frankly I would hate to pay that kind of money and it works only
for the 5MB version, but if you won the lottery.....a working ProFile
with no bad blocks is priceless. For everything else there is
MasterCard.

After I moved away from the cult to the Peesee, I had good success doing
low-level formats on MFM hard drives not fundamentally different from
the ST506 / ST512 found in ProFiles (namely, the ST225 notorious for
liking g=c800:3). A standard MFM drive could not be used in a ProFile
without scrounging an existing analog board (same as the disk II, Apple
Computer Inc. always liked to add some proprietary stuff), but a fresh
low-level _may_ help just in the same way. YMMV.

With drives that age, there is no servo information embedded, so a
low-level format _really_ means format. Someone more familiar with
MFM-era hard drives please debunk me? Louis maybe ;-)


> Project three is the 5W resistor on the memory board. Right now I
> have 50% confidence level that I can simply clip off the 12V.
> This is just a question of doing it or not. As soon as I can convince
> myself that I can not damage anything I will just do it.

Hmmm I have to say I am a bit jealous of not being one of the few who
designed some 74LS chip; I don't have your confidence level. When I look
inside my pants now I have come to a compromise that states they are not
as big as I once believed, and that the amount of work required to fix
mistakes hacking vintage hardware with no available spares does not
balance keeping said non-hacked vintage gear working :P

I'd still replace the CPU with a 65C02 and install the 58167, but these
are proven hacks from 20 years ago.


Michel.


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 10:08:29 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:08:29 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
Message-ID: <0593C738-36F0-4BA9-9778-6DAF5872BC96@gmail.com>

Wolfgang,

Sorry for the delay, I have been away from my office.  I will try reading my SOS CF cards with Ciderpress when I get back, and will send you the dd command I use for the brute-force backup.

Thanks,

Jeff

On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com> wrote:

> Jeff,
> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
> 
> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
> 
> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
> 
> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> Wolfgang,
>> 
>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>> 
>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>> 
>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> 
>>> Jeff,David,
>>> 
>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>> I have some questions for you.
>>> 
>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>   So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>   I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>   ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>      and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>> 
>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Wolfgang
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> breaks
>>> 
>> 
> 

From wkemper at ti.com  Wed Apr 28 10:42:06 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:42:06 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <0593C738-36F0-4BA9-9778-6DAF5872BC96@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
	<0593C738-36F0-4BA9-9778-6DAF5872BC96@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09A5F1F2-C721-4D6B-88E5-87E6DDD3E7EE@ti.com>

Jeff,
no hurry needed, we do vintage business here :-)


Regards,
Wolfgang



On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
> Sorry for the delay, I have been away from my office.  I will try reading my SOS CF cards with Ciderpress when I get back, and will send you the dd command I use for the brute-force backup.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com> wrote:
> 
>> Jeff,
>> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
>> 
>> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
>> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
>> 
>> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
>> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
>> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
>> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
>> 
>> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>> 
>>> Wolfgang,
>>> 
>>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>>> 
>>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>>> 
>>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Jeff,David,
>>>> 
>>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>>> I have some questions for you.
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>>  So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>>  I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>>  ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>>     and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>>> 
>>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Wolfgang
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> breaks
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 


From louiss at gate.net  Wed Apr 28 18:53:47 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:53:47 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>

You don't need any debunking.  Low level means hardware level.  Low 
level formatting can fix a ProFile.  The system the ProFile used was 
when the drive decided a block was "bad", it replaced it with a block 
held in reserve.  The problem was that there were only a fixed number (I 
think 32) blocks held in reserve.  When you used them up, the drive 
stopped working.  I have never run across a "bad" block that was 
physically "bad" so that it was still bad after reformatting.

I have several newly low level formatted 5 MB ProFiles with the test 
printouts showing zero errors (the formatting program provides a written 
report during formatting if you have a Silentype printer attached (which 
I do).

I would be happy to sell  a drive for $75 plus shipping.  Cases are 
undamaged but yellowed.  Drives have BOS installed and work fine.  I 
have four.  One is quiet, even for a ProFile.  One is slightly noisy, 
but nothing unusual.  One is a little more noisy, but still works fine.  
The last one is a little noisy but takes longer than average to do the 
self-test on start up.  If you have never heard one, even a quiet 
ProFile sounds like a jet plane taking off.

I am keeping a couple.  I have no idea how I got so many.  In fact I 
recently threw out a number which I simply could not get to work.

Pictures on request.  First come, first served.

By the way, a long time ago I stupidly gave John Woodward the low level 
formatting software and ROM (and some other things) for free because I 
thought we were friends.  Imagine my surprise when these items began 
turning up on eBay.  We are no longer on speaking terms.

I think some time ago I promised the list I would find this stuff.  The 
chips have become expensive.  I have a few sets of chips and disks which 
I will part with for $50 + shipping.  You don't get a "deluxe kit", you 
just get a formatting piggy-back chip and software.  You need a jumper, 
a ///, a ProFile card and cable, and a 5 MB ProFile.  You can use the 
LED in the case you have.  I may have an extra Silentype if you are 
interested.  You will also get the official directions, which are pretty 
simple.  Please keep in mind this can't fix a broken ProFile, but it 
does fix quite a few.

By the way, if anyone can hack the ROM and software to make these work 
with a 10 MB ProFile and send me those items as files, I will refund the 
purchase price of the chips and disks.  It seems to me it should be 
pretty simple, but I am not a hacker.  I can burn the ROMs and make the 
disks.  If you try to format a 10 MB ProFile with the 5 MB software and 
ROM, only half the drive is formatted.

Louis

On 4/28/2010 4:21 AM, Michel Py wrote:
>> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>> yesterday while sitting sitting an a plane I was speculating about the
>> Unidisk. The Apple /// is somehow the missing link in a lot of cases.
>>      
> Yeah one being AppleWorks..... was called 3 EZ-pieces :P Developed on
> the ///. ProDos comes to mind too :P
>
>
> About the Fry's slot fan, please post a link to photos...Great idea.
> [I have a Kensington fan on both my ][+ and my //e]
> I would suggest plugging the unused slots to maximize the amount of
> fresh air circulated from the front.
>
>
>    
>> I do not have the pinout of the Unidisk connector at my hands
>> right now but I think to remember that there where quite some
>> differences between Disk II and Unidisk.
>>      
> I beg to disagree; despite the important feedback just sent by Louis
> (about daisy-chaining more than 1 drive on a ///+), a quick look at an
> "older" disk II controller side-by-side with a "newer" disk II
> controller shall convince you otherwise.
>
>
>    
>> Project two and priority no One is still my failing Profile drive.
>>      
> Consider this item:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.my/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80075&item=200
> 401692744
> Quite frankly I would hate to pay that kind of money and it works only
> for the 5MB version, but if you won the lottery.....a working ProFile
> with no bad blocks is priceless. For everything else there is
> MasterCard.
>
> After I moved away from the cult to the Peesee, I had good success doing
> low-level formats on MFM hard drives not fundamentally different from
> the ST506 / ST512 found in ProFiles (namely, the ST225 notorious for
> liking g=c800:3). A standard MFM drive could not be used in a ProFile
> without scrounging an existing analog board (same as the disk II, Apple
> Computer Inc. always liked to add some proprietary stuff), but a fresh
> low-level _may_ help just in the same way. YMMV.
>
> With drives that age, there is no servo information embedded, so a
> low-level format _really_ means format. Someone more familiar with
> MFM-era hard drives please debunk me? Louis maybe ;-)
>
>
>    
>> Project three is the 5W resistor on the memory board. Right now I
>> have 50% confidence level that I can simply clip off the 12V.
>> This is just a question of doing it or not. As soon as I can convince
>> myself that I can not damage anything I will just do it.
>>      
> Hmmm I have to say I am a bit jealous of not being one of the few who
> designed some 74LS chip; I don't have your confidence level. When I look
> inside my pants now I have come to a compromise that states they are not
> as big as I once believed, and that the amount of work required to fix
> mistakes hacking vintage hardware with no available spares does not
> balance keeping said non-hacked vintage gear working :P
>
> I'd still replace the CPU with a 65C02 and install the 58167, but these
> are proven hacks from 20 years ago.
>
>
> Michel.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Wed Apr 28 22:01:52 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:01:52 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>

Shirl,

do you mind to send me the "Funny Mode" Memo? (electronic format of course)

I had read about it and found on the schematics also signals which indicate some special AII hardware modes.
The disk driver schematic also has this and it looks it is used to block access to the two extra floppies.

If someone has three or more disks attached to the Apple /// please start the emulation mode and let me know if you can access drive three or four.
I am just curious.

All the literature I read so far is referencing to the Apple ][ mode as something the hardware designer intentionally made unable to access the Apple /// extra features.
From what I understand so far from looking at the schematics, Wendell Sander's  team must have had a hard time to enable the Apple ][ compatibility .
I would rather expect they tried their best to get the Apple ][ emulation running on the Apple /// architecture but could not make it better than a 48k bare bone system without harming the Apple /// too much.
But what do I know, maybe the truth is something completely different .
Doesn't make any difference now, I have not got my Apple /// to use it as an Apple ][ emulator.
It is much more fun to discover the real power of the /// .

Wolfgang




On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> o	SOS DISK /// DRIVER
> 
> The disk /// driver starts in the SOS source listing I attached earlier on page 157 and has page title containing "DISK /// DRIVER".
> 
> o	APPLE /// "FUNNY MODE"
> 
> The first source line on this page is interesting:
> 
> TEST   EQU  0      ;FOR FUNNY-MODE TESTING
> 
> It mentions the ///'s "funny mode". This was a special hardware mode which allowed the ///'s Apple II emulation mode to access part of the ///'s hardware which was normally disabled when the Apple II emulation started. Apple used this mode during the ///'s development to test various /// features (e.g. faster CPU operation, extended addressing) while working in the simpler Apple II emulation mode. This mode was also
> 
> I have a detailed Apple internal development memo about this mode which describes it use and problems:
> 
> Funny Mode and SOS - Implications for the Apple ///
> Bob Etheredge - July 17, 1981 - 7 pages
> 
> One of Apple's /// developers commented about "funny mode" in an email in which he called it "Satan Mode":
> 
>> "Satan Mode," a name I made up. Andy Hertzfeld discovered that you could
>> use the /// as a II with access to the various features, IF you didn't 
>> require ALL the hardware compatibility that the "Apple II switch" enabled. 
>> 
>> Initial attempts to use it were risky, because there were occasional things 
>> you'd forget about and you'd just crash. He then created a "Satan Mode 
>> Boot" diskette, which I later used to run the SubLogic FS-1 flight 
>> simulator at the increased processor speed. 
>> 
>> I don't believe anyone bothered to try using bank-switching, extended 
>> indirect addressing, or 80-column video in Satan Mode; it was a novelty 
>> that was neat but didn't become very popular. 
>> 
>> Once you flipped the /// into II Emulation Mode, you couldn't flip it out 
>> without a reset, nor could you access any of the advanced features.
> 
> o	"XDOS" -- APPLE II PRODOS
> 
> This memo is also interesting since it discusses "XDOS" which was Apple's internal name for the Apple II ProDOS OS which was based on SOS.
> 
> This memo is part of a large collection of /// development memos I obtained from a former /// developer many years ago. There are I believe around 400-500 pages of memos here which fill a large notebook. Fascinating reading (if you like stuff like this).
> 
> Also, here's a recent comment by the creator of ProDOS about its history:
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/cliff_huston/.public/Offering/ProDOS/ProDOS.html
> 
> Apple II ProDOS, introduced in 1982, almost didn't ship.  The project was cancelled just as it was finishing up and preparing for introduction.  There was a great concern within Apple as to whether or not the introduction of ProDOS would cause confusion in the market place.  After all, it offered the same file system capabilities as Apple III SOS - including direct support for hard drives, and enabled the porting of some of the most popular Apple III productivity software onto the Apple II.  At the time, the Apple III was Apple's direct answer to IBM, and Apple II was targeted for education, home, and personal use.  Wouldn't ProDOS muddle the differentiation?  And with Lisa already shipping, and Macintosh on the way, shouldn't the Apple II be expected to reach its retirement age in a year or two?  All very good concerns to consider!
> 
> Well, Lisa wasn't selling very well, the Apple III was barely turning a profit, and Macintosh was still more than a year away... and the Apple II was still rising in sales rates!  A meeting of the Apple Board of Directors decided the matter.  ProDOS would be offered, giving Apple II users a choice of operating systems and access to more professional software and hardware.  The message was clear:  product "turf" would be decided by the marketplace, not divided and protected for the various Apple divisions.  This allowed Macintosh to undermine Lisa's market, the Apple II line to extend to the Apple IIGS (which competed with low end Macintoshes), and later on the iBook to be offered when the PowerBook dominated.  The long term benefit has been a healthy Apple Incorporated!
> 
> - David Craig
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Shirl Casner <shirlgato at cybermesa.com>
>> Date: April 25, 2010 8:55:11 AM MDT
>> To: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>> Cc: Jeff Marraccini <jeff.marraccini at gmail.com>, Michel Py <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
>> Subject: Apple /// source code -- SOS
>> 
>> - David Craig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed Apr 28 23:59:02 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:59:02 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com><7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118EF@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> Shirl, do you mind to send me the "Funny Mode" Memo?

+1

> If someone has three or more disks attached to the Apple ///
> please start the emulation mode and let me know if you can access
> drive three or four. I am just curious.

+1, never done that either. After I got a ProFile, the need for more
than one external drive escaped me. In all logic, it shall be S5,D1 and
S5,D2.


> All the literature I read so far is referencing to the
> Apple ][ mode as something the hardware designer intentionally
> made unable to access the Apple /// extra features.

There was a persistent rumor that Apple purposedly crippled the
emulation mode; the logic behind it was that if the emulation was better
than an Apple II, nobody would bother writing software for the ///
native mode and just use their ///s as a turbo-II. I said rumor.....
This led to the development of the Titan board.

About the Satan mode: I got leaked the disk and I tried it; it was not
nearly enough stable to do anything serious.

About the real speed of an Apple ///: I forgot the measuring method, but
the three delivers about 1.6 Mhz, not 2.0. Some of it is lost in the
screen refresh. There is a SOS call and a hotkey to turn the display
off; I forgot what it was, but I vaguely remember it involved keypad 9
and some other keys. Turning the display off delivered about 1.9 Mhz.

Michel.


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Thu Apr 29 00:36:01 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:36:01 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Louis Schulman wrote:
> Low level means hardware level. Low level formatting can fix a
> ProFile. The system the ProFile used was when the drive decided a
> block was "bad", it replaced it with a block held in reserve. The
> problem was that there were only a fixed number (I think 32) blocks
> held in reserve.  When you used them up, the drive stopped working.

Note: this is called S.M.A.R.T for IDE drives ;-) someone think they
invented the wheel there.

> I have never run across a "bad" block that was physically "bad"
> so that it was still bad after reformatting.

Same here; good drives will slowly build bad blocks and a low-level
format will "save" them.
Bad drives will have so many problems that they can't be saved.

In any case, when low-level formatting a drive, run it idle for 1/2 hour
at least so it gets up to temperature. These early drives did not have
any kind of thermal compensation, so formatting it at the temperature it
will operate is important.


> I have several newly low level formatted 5 MB ProFiles with the
> test printouts showing zero errors (the formatting program provides
> a written report during formatting if you have a Silentype printer
> attached (which I do).
> I would be happy to sell a drive for $75 plus shipping.

I'll take one. I need a backup.


> In fact I recently threw out a number which
> I simply could not get to work.

If you come across one of these again, I'd be happy to have it for
experiments. The noise issue I hear is due to a ball bearing, and
supposedly a small drop of the right "oil" in the right spot would make
it sound like new. I just never dared to try that on a working ProFile;
a working noisy one is better than a silent dead one because of an oil
spill :P


> I have a few sets of chips and disks which I will part with for $50
> + shipping.  You don't get a "deluxe kit", you just get a formatting
> piggy-back chip and software.

I would like one too, but I will step down in favor of anyone who needs
one bad, as I don't.


Healthy ProFile and boot time:

The ProFile scans selected sectors during the boot. If you ever get into
a white room where you can see the drive operating while open, you will
see the arm moving all across the disk. This is a test built into the
ProFile itself, does not matter if SOS is loaded or not. As a matter of
fact, it you boot SOS before the ProFile is ready, you won't be able to
access it.

A good ProFile has a steady beat while booting. The led blinking is
steady, and if you put your hands on it you can actually feel the arm
moving just as clockwork. It beats like at 2Hz, me thinks.

A ProFile turning bad will have an irregular beat, as it retries to read
marginally good sectors. The led may stop blinking, and the feel of the
arm moving will not be regular.
This is the kind of ProFile that a low-level format will likely "save".

Michel.


From gregp at n0qds.org  Wed Apr 28 23:18:24 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:18:24 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>

I've got 3 on my ///.

Booted Apple /// Utilities v1.1 (SOS 1.3) and verified all three work.

Then booted to DOS 3.3. Can only see D1 (internal) and D2. Both are in S6. Ran catalog on S1-S7, but no other drives lit up. Looks like only slot 6. 

Ran Apple-Cillin II to scan the slots. 

Slots 0-4 are empty, Disk II in S6 and unrecognized cards in 5 & 7. If it matters, the value of the cards: in slot 5 is 06 and in slot 7 its 1B. Disk II is BE.

For some reason, I want to say that the Silentype card is in 7. Perhaps the clock is in 5. But its been far too long to speak to that with anything but guesses.

Tried to boot to ProDOS 1.1.1, but that didn't work at all. Disk worked fine on my //c, so guess ProDOS doesn't like the /// in emul mode.

Also found that I have a few dead keys now. No more: U7]`,K
Good thing have another /// that has problems that can steal some keyswitches from. Which is why I kept that one for parts.

   Greg




On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:

> Shirl,
> 
> do you mind to send me the "Funny Mode" Memo? (electronic format of course)
> 
> I had read about it and found on the schematics also signals which indicate some special AII hardware modes.
> The disk driver schematic also has this and it looks it is used to block access to the two extra floppies.
> 
> If someone has three or more disks attached to the Apple /// please start the emulation mode and let me know if you can access drive three or four.
> I am just curious.
> 
> All the literature I read so far is referencing to the Apple ][ mode as something the hardware designer intentionally made unable to access the Apple /// extra features.
>> From what I understand so far from looking at the schematics, Wendell Sander's  team must have had a hard time to enable the Apple ][ compatibility .
> I would rather expect they tried their best to get the Apple ][ emulation running on the Apple /// architecture but could not make it better than a 48k bare bone system without harming the Apple /// too much.
> But what do I know, maybe the truth is something completely different .
> Doesn't make any difference now, I have not got my Apple /// to use it as an Apple ][ emulator.
> It is much more fun to discover the real power of the /// .
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> o	SOS DISK /// DRIVER
>> 
>> The disk /// driver starts in the SOS source listing I attached earlier on page 157 and has page title containing "DISK /// DRIVER".
>> 
>> o	APPLE /// "FUNNY MODE"
>> 
>> The first source line on this page is interesting:
>> 
>> TEST   EQU  0      ;FOR FUNNY-MODE TESTING
>> 
>> It mentions the ///'s "funny mode". This was a special hardware mode which allowed the ///'s Apple II emulation mode to access part of the ///'s hardware which was normally disabled when the Apple II emulation started. Apple used this mode during the ///'s development to test various /// features (e.g. faster CPU operation, extended addressing) while working in the simpler Apple II emulation mode. This mode was also
>> 
>> I have a detailed Apple internal development memo about this mode which describes it use and problems:
>> 
>> Funny Mode and SOS - Implications for the Apple ///
>> Bob Etheredge - July 17, 1981 - 7 pages
>> 
>> One of Apple's /// developers commented about "funny mode" in an email in which he called it "Satan Mode":
>> 
>>> "Satan Mode," a name I made up. Andy Hertzfeld discovered that you could
>>> use the /// as a II with access to the various features, IF you didn't 
>>> require ALL the hardware compatibility that the "Apple II switch" enabled. 
>>> 
>>> Initial attempts to use it were risky, because there were occasional things 
>>> you'd forget about and you'd just crash. He then created a "Satan Mode 
>>> Boot" diskette, which I later used to run the SubLogic FS-1 flight 
>>> simulator at the increased processor speed. 
>>> 
>>> I don't believe anyone bothered to try using bank-switching, extended 
>>> indirect addressing, or 80-column video in Satan Mode; it was a novelty 
>>> that was neat but didn't become very popular. 
>>> 
>>> Once you flipped the /// into II Emulation Mode, you couldn't flip it out 
>>> without a reset, nor could you access any of the advanced features.
>> 
>> o	"XDOS" -- APPLE II PRODOS
>> 
>> This memo is also interesting since it discusses "XDOS" which was Apple's internal name for the Apple II ProDOS OS which was based on SOS.
>> 
>> This memo is part of a large collection of /// development memos I obtained from a former /// developer many years ago. There are I believe around 400-500 pages of memos here which fill a large notebook. Fascinating reading (if you like stuff like this).
>> 
>> Also, here's a recent comment by the creator of ProDOS about its history:
>> 
>> http://homepage.mac.com/cliff_huston/.public/Offering/ProDOS/ProDOS.html
>> 
>> Apple II ProDOS, introduced in 1982, almost didn't ship.  The project was cancelled just as it was finishing up and preparing for introduction.  There was a great concern within Apple as to whether or not the introduction of ProDOS would cause confusion in the market place.  After all, it offered the same file system capabilities as Apple III SOS - including direct support for hard drives, and enabled the porting of some of the most popular Apple III productivity software onto the Apple II.  At the time, the Apple III was Apple's direct answer to IBM, and Apple II was targeted for education, home, and personal use.  Wouldn't ProDOS muddle the differentiation?  And with Lisa already shipping, and Macintosh on the way, shouldn't the Apple II be expected to reach its retirement age in a year or two?  All very good concerns to consider!
>> 
>> Well, Lisa wasn't selling very well, the Apple III was barely turning a profit, and Macintosh was still more than a year away... and the Apple II was still rising in sales rates!  A meeting of the Apple Board of Directors decided the matter.  ProDOS would be offered, giving Apple II users a choice of operating systems and access to more professional software and hardware.  The message was clear:  product "turf" would be decided by the marketplace, not divided and protected for the various Apple divisions.  This allowed Macintosh to undermine Lisa's market, the Apple II line to extend to the Apple IIGS (which competed with low end Macintoshes), and later on the iBook to be offered when the PowerBook dominated.  The long term benefit has been a healthy Apple Incorporated!
>> 
>> - David Craig
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: Shirl Casner <shirlgato at cybermesa.com>
>>> Date: April 25, 2010 8:55:11 AM MDT
>>> To: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>>> Cc: Jeff Marraccini <jeff.marraccini at gmail.com>, Michel Py <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
>>> Subject: Apple /// source code -- SOS
>>> 
>>> - David Craig
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From gregp at n0qds.org  Thu Apr 29 00:38:05 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:38:05 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <C1F07E52-AD84-49BE-9389-0A38493D3449@n0qds.org>

From the Apple III Owner's Guide (Probably should've read this earlier, but far more fun to get the ol' /// out...)

Appendix D -- The Apple II Emulation Diskette. p137

"When you use the Emulation diskette for the first time, your Apple III acts like a 48K Apple II Plus with Applesoft II BASIC, a 16-sector Disk II controller card, and a Serial card. You can also change the diskette so that the Apple III emulates an Apple II with Integer BASIC, or either type of Apple II with a communications card.

Apple II Emulation assigns the Apple III's built-in disk drive to be the equivalent of slot 6, drive 1, on an Apple II; it assigns the first additional disk drive to be the equivalent of slot 6, drive 2. Apple II Emulation makes the Apple III's built-in RS-232-C serial port act like an Apple II serial card or, optionally, an Apple II communications card, plugged into slot 7 or slot 5."

There was no mention of using more than 2 disk drives in emulation mode. And its consistent with the behavior observed. 


My favorite: 

p92. Set Time and date:
"The day must be a number. The month must be the first three letters of the month's name. The year must be a 2-digit number. If we are still making Apple III's in 2001, we'll revise SOS to handle the new dates."

In SOS 1.3, I put in today's date, 28-APR-10, and it seemed happy enough for the brief time I was in SOS.


     Greg




On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:

> Shirl,
> 
> do you mind to send me the "Funny Mode" Memo? (electronic format of course)
> 
> I had read about it and found on the schematics also signals which indicate some special AII hardware modes.
> The disk driver schematic also has this and it looks it is used to block access to the two extra floppies.
> 
> If someone has three or more disks attached to the Apple /// please start the emulation mode and let me know if you can access drive three or four.
> I am just curious.
> 
> All the literature I read so far is referencing to the Apple ][ mode as something the hardware designer intentionally made unable to access the Apple /// extra features.
>> From what I understand so far from looking at the schematics, Wendell Sander's  team must have had a hard time to enable the Apple ][ compatibility .
> I would rather expect they tried their best to get the Apple ][ emulation running on the Apple /// architecture but could not make it better than a 48k bare bone system without harming the Apple /// too much.
> But what do I know, maybe the truth is something completely different .
> Doesn't make any difference now, I have not got my Apple /// to use it as an Apple ][ emulator.
> It is much more fun to discover the real power of the /// .
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> o	SOS DISK /// DRIVER
>> 
>> The disk /// driver starts in the SOS source listing I attached earlier on page 157 and has page title containing "DISK /// DRIVER".
>> 
>> o	APPLE /// "FUNNY MODE"
>> 
>> The first source line on this page is interesting:
>> 
>> TEST   EQU  0      ;FOR FUNNY-MODE TESTING
>> 
>> It mentions the ///'s "funny mode". This was a special hardware mode which allowed the ///'s Apple II emulation mode to access part of the ///'s hardware which was normally disabled when the Apple II emulation started. Apple used this mode during the ///'s development to test various /// features (e.g. faster CPU operation, extended addressing) while working in the simpler Apple II emulation mode. This mode was also
>> 
>> I have a detailed Apple internal development memo about this mode which describes it use and problems:
>> 
>> Funny Mode and SOS - Implications for the Apple ///
>> Bob Etheredge - July 17, 1981 - 7 pages
>> 
>> One of Apple's /// developers commented about "funny mode" in an email in which he called it "Satan Mode":
>> 
>>> "Satan Mode," a name I made up. Andy Hertzfeld discovered that you could
>>> use the /// as a II with access to the various features, IF you didn't 
>>> require ALL the hardware compatibility that the "Apple II switch" enabled. 
>>> 
>>> Initial attempts to use it were risky, because there were occasional things 
>>> you'd forget about and you'd just crash. He then created a "Satan Mode 
>>> Boot" diskette, which I later used to run the SubLogic FS-1 flight 
>>> simulator at the increased processor speed. 
>>> 
>>> I don't believe anyone bothered to try using bank-switching, extended 
>>> indirect addressing, or 80-column video in Satan Mode; it was a novelty 
>>> that was neat but didn't become very popular. 
>>> 
>>> Once you flipped the /// into II Emulation Mode, you couldn't flip it out 
>>> without a reset, nor could you access any of the advanced features.
>> 
>> o	"XDOS" -- APPLE II PRODOS
>> 
>> This memo is also interesting since it discusses "XDOS" which was Apple's internal name for the Apple II ProDOS OS which was based on SOS.
>> 
>> This memo is part of a large collection of /// development memos I obtained from a former /// developer many years ago. There are I believe around 400-500 pages of memos here which fill a large notebook. Fascinating reading (if you like stuff like this).
>> 
>> Also, here's a recent comment by the creator of ProDOS about its history:
>> 
>> http://homepage.mac.com/cliff_huston/.public/Offering/ProDOS/ProDOS.html
>> 
>> Apple II ProDOS, introduced in 1982, almost didn't ship.  The project was cancelled just as it was finishing up and preparing for introduction.  There was a great concern within Apple as to whether or not the introduction of ProDOS would cause confusion in the market place.  After all, it offered the same file system capabilities as Apple III SOS - including direct support for hard drives, and enabled the porting of some of the most popular Apple III productivity software onto the Apple II.  At the time, the Apple III was Apple's direct answer to IBM, and Apple II was targeted for education, home, and personal use.  Wouldn't ProDOS muddle the differentiation?  And with Lisa already shipping, and Macintosh on the way, shouldn't the Apple II be expected to reach its retirement age in a year or two?  All very good concerns to consider!
>> 
>> Well, Lisa wasn't selling very well, the Apple III was barely turning a profit, and Macintosh was still more than a year away... and the Apple II was still rising in sales rates!  A meeting of the Apple Board of Directors decided the matter.  ProDOS would be offered, giving Apple II users a choice of operating systems and access to more professional software and hardware.  The message was clear:  product "turf" would be decided by the marketplace, not divided and protected for the various Apple divisions.  This allowed Macintosh to undermine Lisa's market, the Apple II line to extend to the Apple IIGS (which competed with low end Macintoshes), and later on the iBook to be offered when the PowerBook dominated.  The long term benefit has been a healthy Apple Incorporated!
>> 
>> - David Craig
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: Shirl Casner <shirlgato at cybermesa.com>
>>> Date: April 25, 2010 8:55:11 AM MDT
>>> To: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>>> Cc: Jeff Marraccini <jeff.marraccini at gmail.com>, Michel Py <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
>>> Subject: Apple /// source code -- SOS
>>> 
>>> - David Craig
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Thu Apr 29 08:45:00 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:45:00 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118EF@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com><7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118EF@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <A0D241FE-0B87-4F1D-A2C3-7EA4CF2D6409@ti.com>

> 
> About the real speed of an Apple ///: I forgot the measuring method, but
> the three delivers about 1.6 Mhz, not 2.0. Some of it is lost in the
> screen refresh. There is a SOS call and a hotkey to turn the display
> off; I forgot what it was, but I vaguely remember it involved keypad 9
> and some other keys. Turning the display off delivered about 1.9 Mhz.

Control + Keypad 5 is switching the screen of. AFAIK



From wkemper at ti.com  Thu Apr 29 08:51:20 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:51:20 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>

>  As a matter of
> fact, it you boot SOS before the ProFile is ready, you won't be able to
> access it.
> 
> A good ProFile has a steady beat while booting. The led blinking is
> steady, and if you put your hands on it you can actually feel the arm
> moving just as clockwork. It beats like at 2Hz, me thinks.
> 
> A ProFile turning bad will have an irregular beat, as it retries to read
> marginally good sectors. The led may stop blinking, and the feel of the
> arm moving will not be regular.
> This is the kind of ProFile that a low-level format will likely "save".
Michel you might have saved me a lot of trouble.

1) I did not know that you have to start up the drive BEFORE you turn on the profile.
    This might be a important clue to my troubles. If this is all I am doing wrong........
	    I have checked out a couple of IC's on the driver card and so far all looks good, so I was starting to worry about the drive.

2) I will try to measure the pulse on the patient, that seems to be a very good way to check how healthy the drive is.
     Kind of cute that it acts like a living being.



From wkemper at ti.com  Thu Apr 29 08:57:30 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:57:30 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>
Message-ID: <41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>


On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Greg Putrich wrote:

> I've got 3 on my ///.
> 
> Booted Apple /// Utilities v1.1 (SOS 1.3) and verified all three work.
> 
> Then booted to DOS 3.3. Can only see D1 (internal) and D2. Both are in S6. Ran catalog on S1-S7, but no other drives lit up. Looks like only slot 6. 
> 
> Ran Apple-Cillin II to scan the slots. 
> 
> Slots 0-4 are empty, Disk II in S6 and unrecognized cards in 5 & 7. If it matters, the value of the cards: in slot 5 is 06 and in slot 7 its 1B. Disk II is BE.
> 
> For some reason, I want to say that the Silentype card is in 7. Perhaps the clock is in 5. But its been far too long to speak to that with anything but guesses.

Thanks a lot, that's what I have expected from looking at the schematics.
When I will experiment with the Disk][ adaptor I will add a switch to suppress the AII "disabler" . Maybe the extra drives will then be accessible as S5,d1/d2

> 
> Tried to boot to ProDOS 1.1.1, but that didn't work at all. Disk worked fine on my //c, so guess ProDOS doesn't like the /// in emul mode.

I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.
If you boot DOS3.3 you will notice that Basic is also not loaded to the language card.

> 
> Also found that I have a few dead keys now. No more: U7]`,K
> Good thing have another /// that has problems that can steal some keyswitches from. Which is why I kept that one for parts.
> 
>   Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> 
>> Shirl,
>> 
>> do you mind to send me the "Funny Mode" Memo? (electronic format of course)
>> 
>> I had read about it and found on the schematics also signals which indicate some special AII hardware modes.
>> The disk driver schematic also has this and it looks it is used to block access to the two extra floppies.
>> 
>> If someone has three or more disks attached to the Apple /// please start the emulation mode and let me know if you can access drive three or four.
>> I am just curious.
>> 
>> All the literature I read so far is referencing to the Apple ][ mode as something the hardware designer intentionally made unable to access the Apple /// extra features.
>>> From what I understand so far from looking at the schematics, Wendell Sander's  team must have had a hard time to enable the Apple ][ compatibility .
>> I would rather expect they tried their best to get the Apple ][ emulation running on the Apple /// architecture but could not make it better than a 48k bare bone system without harming the Apple /// too much.
>> But what do I know, maybe the truth is something completely different .
>> Doesn't make any difference now, I have not got my Apple /// to use it as an Apple ][ emulator.
>> It is much more fun to discover the real power of the /// .
>> 
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> o	SOS DISK /// DRIVER
>>> 
>>> The disk /// driver starts in the SOS source listing I attached earlier on page 157 and has page title containing "DISK /// DRIVER".
>>> 
>>> o	APPLE /// "FUNNY MODE"
>>> 
>>> The first source line on this page is interesting:
>>> 
>>> TEST   EQU  0      ;FOR FUNNY-MODE TESTING
>>> 
>>> It mentions the ///'s "funny mode". This was a special hardware mode which allowed the ///'s Apple II emulation mode to access part of the ///'s hardware which was normally disabled when the Apple II emulation started. Apple used this mode during the ///'s development to test various /// features (e.g. faster CPU operation, extended addressing) while working in the simpler Apple II emulation mode. This mode was also
>>> 
>>> I have a detailed Apple internal development memo about this mode which describes it use and problems:
>>> 
>>> Funny Mode and SOS - Implications for the Apple ///
>>> Bob Etheredge - July 17, 1981 - 7 pages
>>> 
>>> One of Apple's /// developers commented about "funny mode" in an email in which he called it "Satan Mode":
>>> 
>>>> "Satan Mode," a name I made up. Andy Hertzfeld discovered that you could
>>>> use the /// as a II with access to the various features, IF you didn't 
>>>> require ALL the hardware compatibility that the "Apple II switch" enabled. 
>>>> 
>>>> Initial attempts to use it were risky, because there were occasional things 
>>>> you'd forget about and you'd just crash. He then created a "Satan Mode 
>>>> Boot" diskette, which I later used to run the SubLogic FS-1 flight 
>>>> simulator at the increased processor speed. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't believe anyone bothered to try using bank-switching, extended 
>>>> indirect addressing, or 80-column video in Satan Mode; it was a novelty 
>>>> that was neat but didn't become very popular. 
>>>> 
>>>> Once you flipped the /// into II Emulation Mode, you couldn't flip it out 
>>>> without a reset, nor could you access any of the advanced features.
>>> 
>>> o	"XDOS" -- APPLE II PRODOS
>>> 
>>> This memo is also interesting since it discusses "XDOS" which was Apple's internal name for the Apple II ProDOS OS which was based on SOS.
>>> 
>>> This memo is part of a large collection of /// development memos I obtained from a former /// developer many years ago. There are I believe around 400-500 pages of memos here which fill a large notebook. Fascinating reading (if you like stuff like this).
>>> 
>>> Also, here's a recent comment by the creator of ProDOS about its history:
>>> 
>>> http://homepage.mac.com/cliff_huston/.public/Offering/ProDOS/ProDOS.html
>>> 
>>> Apple II ProDOS, introduced in 1982, almost didn't ship.  The project was cancelled just as it was finishing up and preparing for introduction.  There was a great concern within Apple as to whether or not the introduction of ProDOS would cause confusion in the market place.  After all, it offered the same file system capabilities as Apple III SOS - including direct support for hard drives, and enabled the porting of some of the most popular Apple III productivity software onto the Apple II.  At the time, the Apple III was Apple's direct answer to IBM, and Apple II was targeted for education, home, and personal use.  Wouldn't ProDOS muddle the differentiation?  And with Lisa already shipping, and Macintosh on the way, shouldn't the Apple II be expected to reach its retirement age in a year or two?  All very good concerns to consider!
>>> 
>>> Well, Lisa wasn't selling very well, the Apple III was barely turning a profit, and Macintosh was still more than a year away... and the Apple II was still rising in sales rates!  A meeting of the Apple Board of Directors decided the matter.  ProDOS would be offered, giving Apple II users a choice of operating systems and access to more professional software and hardware.  The message was clear:  product "turf" would be decided by the marketplace, not divided and protected for the various Apple divisions.  This allowed Macintosh to undermine Lisa's market, the Apple II line to extend to the Apple IIGS (which competed with low end Macintoshes), and later on the iBook to be offered when the PowerBook dominated.  The long term benefit has been a healthy Apple Incorporated!
>>> 
>>> - David Craig
>>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>>> From: Shirl Casner <shirlgato at cybermesa.com>
>>>> Date: April 25, 2010 8:55:11 AM MDT
>>>> To: "Kemper, Wolfgang" <wkemper at ti.com>
>>>> Cc: Jeff Marraccini <jeff.marraccini at gmail.com>, Michel Py <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
>>>> Subject: Apple /// source code -- SOS
>>>> 
>>>> - David Craig
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Apple3-L mailing list
>>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Thu Apr 29 09:06:21 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:06:21 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <C1F07E52-AD84-49BE-9389-0A38493D3449@n0qds.org>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<C1F07E52-AD84-49BE-9389-0A38493D3449@n0qds.org>
Message-ID: <6FFE84D7-6A2E-488F-A663-E766CF90AEC9@ti.com>


On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Greg Putrich wrote:

> 
> My favorite: 
> 
> p92. Set Time and date:
> "The day must be a number. The month must be the first three letters of the month's name. The year must be a 2-digit number. If we are still making Apple III's in 2001, we'll revise SOS to handle the new dates."
> 
> In SOS 1.3, I put in today's date, 28-APR-10, and it seemed happy enough for the brief time I was in SOS.
> 
LOL

By the way if you type in 28-Apr-10 it is stored as 28 April 1910 !!
Check out the date string.
Not that it makes a difference because I am sure I will not use the /// or SOS in 2110 or will get in trouble with files created in 1910 !


From gregp at n0qds.org  Thu Apr 29 09:21:26 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:21:26 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>
	<41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
Message-ID: <20100429132126.GB65002@taconite.n0qds.org>

Kemper, Wolfgang said:
> I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.
> If you boot DOS3.3 you will notice that Basic is also not loaded to the language card.

You're right. Its only a 48k machine in emul. I was too excited getting
the /// going and trying my old disks to bother thinking too much about it.



From gregp at n0qds.org  Thu Apr 29 09:25:58 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:25:58 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <6FFE84D7-6A2E-488F-A663-E766CF90AEC9@ti.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<C1F07E52-AD84-49BE-9389-0A38493D3449@n0qds.org>
	<6FFE84D7-6A2E-488F-A663-E766CF90AEC9@ti.com>
Message-ID: <20100429132558.GC65002@taconite.n0qds.org>

Kemper, Wolfgang said:
> By the way if you type in 28-Apr-10 it is stored as 28 April 1910 !!
> Check out the date string.
> Not that it makes a difference because I am sure I will not use the /// or SOS in 2110 or will get in trouble with files created in 1910 !

I never bothered looking into it. It accepted the date and I went on
with other testing. Figured it was probably 1910, but didn't matter. I was
pleased seeing that it didn't complain. 

I'm sure that I won't be using the /// in 2110 as I'll be over 140. But, 
who knows... maybe I'll take the /// with me. 


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Thu Apr 29 13:05:29 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:05:29 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> I did not know that you have to start up the drive BEFORE you turn
> on the profile.

I did not explain it right; you have to start the ProFile and wait for
it to be ready before starting the Apple ///. When the .profile driver
loads the ProFile has to be in ready state (LED steady on).

> I will try to measure the pulse on the patient, that seems to be a
very
> good way to check how healthy the drive is.

A regular pulse at startup does not necessarily mean the drive is
completely good, as only a subset of the sectors are read; there could
be some bad ones still. If the pulse has hiccups then for sure you have
some bad blocks.


> Greg Putrich wrote:
> I never bothered looking into it. It accepted the date and I went on
> with other testing. Figured it was probably 1910, but didn't matter.
> I was pleased seeing that it didn't complain.

There is something quick that can be done: hack the day of the week in
SOS so it displays right when it boots (for those of us who have the
58167 installed). If you don't have the clock yet, they sell on eBay for
cheap.


> I'm sure that I won't be using the /// in 2110 as I'll be over 140.
> But, who knows... maybe I'll take the /// with me.

If someone is not in a rush and can wait the 30 or 40 years I have left,
I'll be happy to put the my /// in my will for you :-D Where I go then
I'm sure there is a ///e.

Michel.


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Thu Apr 29 18:42:37 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:42:37 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Profile drive.....it's alive !.......kind of
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>


>> Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> I did not know that you have to start up the drive BEFORE you turn
>> on the profile.
> 
> I did not explain it right; you have to start the ProFile and wait for
> it to be ready before starting the Apple ///. When the .profile driver
> loads the ProFile has to be in ready state (LED steady on).

Michel,

vielen herzlichen Dank !, muchas gracias! thank you very much!
My profile is up and running.

After giving it a good warm up run I booted SOS and the drive was online and I could write data to it.

A verify shows a couple of bad blocks.
Beginning with 274 until it breaks up at 373 with the message too many blocks.

Looks I am a candidate for a low level format.


I will try to reformat and see what happens.

Wolfgang





From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Thu Apr 29 23:25:58 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:25:58 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Profile drive.....it's alive !.......kind of
In-Reply-To: <7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FB@newserver.arneill-py.local>

>> Michel Py wrote:
>> I did not explain it right; you have to start the ProFile and wait
for
>> it to be ready before starting the Apple ///. When the .profile
driver
>> loads the ProFile has to be in ready state (LED steady on).

> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> My profile is up and running.

Glad I could help! It's kinda exciting to see another /// brought back
up.

> After giving it a good warm up run I booted SOS and the
> drive was online and I could write data to it.

How was the pulse during warmup?


> A verify shows a couple of bad blocks beginning with 274 until it
> breaks up at 373 with the message too many blocks.

Not a good sign. This may indicate a head crash. Generally, disks tend
to build bad blocks towards the end (unlike a CD, on a drive the first
track is outside) because the encoding density is higher towards the
center. A 5MB ProFile has 9728 blocks.

> Looks I am a candidate for a low level format.

It's worth a try; I would definitely fork out the $50 that Louis wants
for the chip even if in your case I would not have too high expectations
that it would fix it. YMMV.

Even if the ProFile is dead, do NOT throw it away. I'm glad to pay for
the shipping so I can have it to take apart and figure out where to
inject the drop of oil to make it less noisy.

Michel.


From gregp at n0qds.org  Thu Apr 29 23:28:32 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 22:28:32 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Profile drive.....it's alive !.......kind of
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4802CFC9-6D83-4C07-992A-8AE65C566A44@n0qds.org>

On Apr 29, 2010, at 10:25 PM, Michel Py wrote:
> 
> Even if the ProFile is dead, do NOT throw it away. I'm glad to pay for
> the shipping so I can have it to take apart and figure out where to
> inject the drop of oil to make it less noisy.
> 
> Michel.


If you find out where it goes, pass the info along. I've got a ProFile that sounds like a jet on takeoff. Have another ProFile that's fairly quiet.

   Greg




From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Fri Apr 30 00:05:16 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:05:16 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Profile drive.....it's alive !.......kind of
In-Reply-To: <4802CFC9-6D83-4C07-992A-8AE65C566A44@n0qds.org>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4802CFC9-6D83-4C07-992A-8AE65C566A44@n0qds.org>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FC@newserver.arneill-py.local>

>> Michel Py wrote:
>> Even if the ProFile is dead, do NOT throw it away. I'm glad to pay
>> for the shipping so I can have it to take apart and figure out

> Greg Putrich wrote:
> If you find out where it goes, pass the info along. I've
> got a ProFile that sounds like a jet on takeoff. Have another
> ProFile that's fairly quiet.

The reason I want a dead one to look at is because it may require
exposing the platters; on a working drive this absolutely mandates a
completely sterile setup. The noise supposedly comes from a bearing on
the motor's shaft.

Unfortunately, the only obvious way to lubricate is to turn the drive
upside down, drop the oil, and wait for Sir Isaac Newton to take it to
the bearing. Catch is: if any of it gets to the platters you lost the
drive.

There is also the issue of picking the right lubricant; jury is still
out on soft Teflon or Militec (both car engine additives).

Michel.


From wkemper at ti.com  Fri Apr 30 12:17:26 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:17:26 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] The profile got the kiss of death
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FC@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<124E68EB-E530-4216-8DF8-D24F858C62DA@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E7@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD8BC7B.5050702@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<F7190704-6CDF-443F-A633-A2927231CC05@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118F4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<7A738711-EACF-42D8-BFF2-713816AA03E3@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FB@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4802CFC9-6D83-4C07-992A-8AE65C566A44@n0qds.org>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118FC@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <AC5D0E5A-F16A-47D5-A8CC-BBA3C2E648E8@ti.com>

I thing the Profile just made a last appearance to say goodbye.

Yesterday evening I was installing BOS on the drive and did some copying.
I did a cold reset and the Apple /// came up with the build in self test.
Normally this is just a brief flash and the floppy starts to work immediately.

This time it went to the vIdeo test and some other screens ending with a blank screen and some beeps.

I could only make this disappear either by hitting reset or by disconnecting the Profile.

The profile now does not response anymore, just now and then I get a brief swirl and a blink of the ready light.

Shutting down everything and restarting the Profile ,after that the Apple /// does not reliably getting the profile online.

As nice it would have been to have a working profile, just for "showing off the jet engine" I am not too disappointed.

With the CFFA card installed I have a bunch of HD spaces and BOS runs fine.

I was thinking to rewire the profile ready light so that it works as the status light for the CFFA.
I do not want to get rid of the profile because it just looks great to have the Apple ///+profile+Monitor/// stack.






On Apr 29, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Michel Py wrote:

>>> Michel Py wrote:
>>> Even if the ProFile is dead, do NOT throw it away. I'm glad to pay
>>> for the shipping so I can have it to take apart and figure out
> 
>> Greg Putrich wrote:
>> If you find out where it goes, pass the info along. I've
>> got a ProFile that sounds like a jet on takeoff. Have another
>> ProFile that's fairly quiet.
> 
> The reason I want a dead one to look at is because it may require
> exposing the platters; on a working drive this absolutely mandates a
> completely sterile setup. The noise supposedly comes from a bearing on
> the motor's shaft.
> 
> Unfortunately, the only obvious way to lubricate is to turn the drive
> upside down, drop the oil, and wait for Sir Isaac Newton to take it to
> the bearing. Catch is: if any of it gets to the platters you lost the
> drive.
> 
> There is also the issue of picking the right lubricant; jury is still
> out on soft Teflon or Militec (both car engine additives).
> 
> Michel.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


